Is Denon Losing The Game?

I LOVE my SC6000Ms’ but is Denon losing in the DJ hardware and software game?

With Serato stems coming out, Engine just seems too far behind to catch up to their competitors - Pioneer, Serato, and VDJ.

Denon dropped the ball big time with Serato integration compared with VDJ and Pioneer. Engine lacks basic functionality such as relocating lost files, custom metadata views, collapsable treed crates, and smart crates.

The SC6000 is a beautiful piece of hardware with a great, modern UI, but I find it harder and harder to switch from Serato, no matter how hard I try. Even with paying Lexicon to make up for Engine’s many shortcomings, stems seem like a great future.

I sadly feel like they will always be my fun living room decks, not a serious DJ solution. What are your thoughts?

Edit for clarification. Thanks, STU!

Denon’s fight is a generational one, and will continue to play out over years not months. First mover is not much of an advantage in a market like this; the game will be won over time. And if you’re following along with development you’ll see they’re working on improving a lot of aspects of the system. Yes, if you’re a consumer who’s motivated to switch things up every 6 months or year, yr feeling like moving because there’s shinier features elsewhere … but the game continues imo and denon still has a great shot at doing (more) great things.

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I find your whole comment confusing, on one hand you’re saying you own some SC-6000s then in the next paragraph you’re saying you’re finding it really hard to switch, switch to what? Or from what?

Is this all down to Serato introducing Stems? I’m not sure what else Denon are so far behind with? I use Engine much in the same way I use Serato or RB, and the interface on the devices seems intuitive enough, I never struggle to find tracks in plenty of time to load them up and get them in time/blend in.

Like I say, I’m struggling to understand where exactly you’re coming from here? Are you a current owner looking elsewhere?

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Sorry, Stu - making the switch from Serato, but everything else is stated,

“Denon dropped the ball big time with Serato integration compared with VDJ and Pioneer. Engine lacks basic functionality such as relocating lost files, custom metadata views, collapsable treed crates, and smart crates.”

I also stated that I love the UI, minus not treeing the playlists. Having to click through each playlist versus seeing them as a tree, like in the desktop version - is a UX nightmare, but I can let that go.

So back to my point. Denon is behind on fundamental aspects such as relocating lost files, custom metadata views, collapsable treed crates, and smart crates - the list goes on and on in the feature request area. I can elaborate more if needed but they have all been heavily discussed on this forum. With VDJ and Serato using stems, I am losing faith that Denon will ever become a strong competitor.

I hope that clarifies.

Agreed. I am not motivated to switch things up a lot. Instead, looking for tools that help me become better at my craft while making it easier to be creative. Back in the day, there were mixers that did not have EQs on them. Wanting a mixer with EQs was still warranted then. Denon increased my hope with Engine 2.0 but since then, it’s mostly just bug fixes, lighting, and streaming updates. You couldn’t even sort the prepare folder until I mentioned It - thanks, Denon!

I still think that if they do not address these simple aspects, they are losing in the DJ game.

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That should tell you all you need to know about Denons commitment to development.

Engine DJ software isn’t supposed to be serato or traktor or djay etc / Engine DJ is purely at-home, off-stage, pre-gig preparation software; librarian software as it were.

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Frankly I know LOADS of DJ’s (particularly, but not only) open-format guys, who have no use for stems. I could live a long, happy DJ life without them no problem.

Still, I do believe the Prime eco-system could actually handle it if it got added in some way (preferably as an optional extra).

I remember when Traktor came out with Stems, what seems like eons ago. And it never really took off.

Take a 1.000 DJ’s and you’ll get 10.000 idea’s of what is missing to make something their personal best piece of gear.

Unfortunately not all those things can be added and those that can need time and a prioritised order.

To say Denon is losing the race, imho, is not correct, because they are still the only serious system on the market that have their own OS, giving them the unique option of adding stuff again and again. From being able to use “dumb” controllers for 2nd layer decks to light control right out of the box to … you name it.

Is it perfect yet? Not by a long shot. Is it good? At this moment I think the Prime series is a formidable tool in the hands of an experienced DJ. And while I get that some people prefer using something else than Engine DJ, using the Prime’s as a “regular” controller for a laptop/DJ software setup was never the original design spec and perhaps not even the best choice one can make.

That said … if you had bought a Pioneer controller a year ago without stems for example, you’d be out there selling your old controller and saving up the extra money for one with stems, until something else comes out that you like and feel you must have and the cycle continues.

As I said in other posts, I love my Prime 4 and am so happy to not have to bother with laptops and software and such. Yes, Engine DJ is (still) lacking in some respects, but nothing I can’t work with. But the pro’s soooooo outweigh the cons, it’s not even a serious competition for me.

I wish everyone the piece of equipment that best suits his/her needs/wants, but for one new feature “lacking” on a piece of existing hardware to say Denon are missing the boat/losing the game seems a bit of a stretch to me.

My 3 cents as usual

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Sorting the prepare folder is on the player. There is no prepare folder within Engine Desktop :slight_smile:

You are certainly correct. Engine desktop is not serato, or traktor. But in UX/UI, also called human-computer interaction, there are basic fundamental functions, and Denon seems to lack a ton of them. There was an argument on this forum about relocating lost files a while back and basically, it’s true. Whether you need it or use it, it’s a basic computing task that every creative application supports.

Ahhhh ok, that makes sense now. I use both alongside each other and will probs continue to do so.

I don’t think Stems should be getting as much hype as it is tbh, and certainly wouldn’t impact my opinion on a companies status in the scene. But that’s just my personal opinion.

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I agree and I would rather NOT use my sc6000’s as controllers. To my surprise, there is a rise in American DJs using CDJ 3000’s with Serato, and it all boiled down to the interface and integration, which Denon left us hanging on (according to Serato).

I said stems, but don’t let that stand out. It’s just another piece of the missing puzzle I mentioned. But, when the player lacks the basic fundamental functions the others have, I call that being behind. For me, stems are just another feature that reminds me of the fundamental options that Denon left out, making me feel that Denon will never catch up.

With all that said, at home - these have been reliable, don’t crash, and are very fun to use. Just behind in functionality - A LOT :slight_smile:

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I took a peek at stems and looks sweet but obviously not ready for it, and I don’t want to buy a new $3k computer. I think Serato’s stem integration has some usability flaws too. It’s just another reminder that I cant customize my metatada views on the player, alongside many other things. Thankfully Lexicon makes up for most of it. I LOVE these players. Just feel like were getting left in the dust a bit :slight_smile:

I am really looking forward to Engine with Rane products and the next iteration of the prime series.

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My guess is version 2 of all the prime gear is on its way. The Prime 2 is discontinued now.

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Since when ?

Lack of parts has made manufacturing difficult but I’ve not seen any official stance that a current product has been discontinued

Since I sent mine back for repair and was told at the shop. Obviously not official but he said it’s finished.

Usage at home: Perfect

On location: As always just not reliable enough…

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Had more issues with pioneers than i ever have had with denon. But i have someething weird about me ( NO COMMENT REQUIRED)where pioneer play butoons dont always work ( brand new units in shop) but i dont have this issue with any denon unit. 1 in day 10 times play button just doesn’t work on all pioneers. So maybe i am a bit biased

I’m guessing that there are probably more bedroom DJs with deep pockets and gear addiction than working DJs. So, from a business standpoint it is not a bad idea to cater for that market segment…

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Look, I’m sorry, but today I don’t understand this talk about serato! Serious! Even worse, when I see someone using sc6000 player with serato! Serato you are a slave to a notebook, you need to use usb connections! Oh my God!! Look at the internal software of the device! Navigation without having to use a notebook! Why become a slave to software? It never seems to be good! I’ve played vinyl my whole life, my turntables are about to retire here after my SC6000 arrived! Serato? I abandoned! As bad as the Engine is, it is far from being compared to other software, but I can still use it calmly in the “organize my tracks” aspect. And it works well, I have 2 ssd in my players with, all my music library, all organized by playlists, analyzed and transferred by ENGINE! When I update something on the pc, I plug them into the usb and transfer the new tracks smoothly to their sdd! I don’t know what else this can be easy, intuitive to find on the device and its 10 inch screen! Why this Serato and VDJ thing? And what does pioneer have to do with it? Pioneer is Pioneer and its 2009 software toys! Leave Denon and its innovation, which as we’ve seen before, still has a lot to show! I don’t miss anything! You just need to improve what you already have!

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People use Serato etc because computer companies are far better at maintaining a stable OS than DJ equipment companies are, as I’ve sadly found out recently… and the reason my Prime 2 is away for repair.

Yes, that’s the root cause of all the non-happiness with DJ equipment (not only Denon). They are not real software companies. Looks like the software is still some kind of “niche” for them. They seem not to understand that the software is as important as the hardware, and it is never “finished”. When the hardware is finished you are done with it and can start with the next project, but software needs ongoing investment and dedication.

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