Article: What Happened to Denon DJ? Why Better Features Couldn’t Beat AlphaTheta Pioneer

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41

Well, it indeed shows gear purchased. As I said the youth can’t afford too much hardware. The use software, sometimes stolen software.

But, if this marketing study is right, then the DJ culture is aging, just like the guitar hero culture did, and no youngsters are taking up DJing. Which seems strange to me, the youth wants to make music for their own generation for the last 70 years, I can’t imagine only old farts are playing on their parties… If there is anything that is so specific for a generation, than it’s their music taste…

OK, your study aligns with the average age of a Tomorrowland visitor rising every year. But DJing is more than EDM (which honestly is historically spun out as a genre, it is lasting 40+ years by now, a record InMusic history!). DJing, It’s about playing music your audience likes. Kids party with their own generation. Having only old farts play at their parties means a generation gap, and the last time in history this was the norm was in the interbellum with swing jazz and the post war ballads… Soon after came rock and roll, pirate radio and so on, made by rebellious kids!

last theory is that kids are using Spotify AI playlists instead of a DJ nowadays. Which indeed would be the end of DJing altogether.

bottom line, if kids aren’t into playing music for their likeminded generation, this artform is destined to go extinct… And your marketing study shows a big long term problem in the industry…

I am honestly pro standalone units, because I hate a laptop in a bear-soaked bar. But I do look around at what other people are or might be doing, and understand/support @Gaian’s argument.

personally I am fed up being locked up into 1 ecosystem without time consuming conversion steps, with risk of loosing data. I currently miss hooking up my Traktor DVS to my technics, but that’s for nostalgia-reasons. In a production environment I want my SC6000s. Although at certain events it would be nice to pop up with a Rekordbox USB. Maybe OneLibrary will solve some of these gripes.

But don’t get me wrong, I like my SC6000, but they have downsides too, just like any other gear on the planet!

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Oh boy I’ve seen this happen. I thought it was the network cable that was broken. It rarely happens with my usb. Last time happened in an event I threw, DJs come in with Rekordbox playlists or maybe huge files and these unpredictable things start to happen, on sc6000s. Complete panic. But eventually after like 3/4 reboots it started to work again.

so is this a known limitation of the denon dj link?

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But honestly it could have been a mix of things. I also had a tascam and a DJI osmo action camera connected to the usbs in the sc6000 maybe it was stealing power from the unit , making the link not work as supposed?

Btw the usb ports at the Back of the unit are god sent. Denon really is the best

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Well, that’s probably because it’s the maximum available cache size.

The cache is a reserved space in the device’s RAM. When you load a track onto a deck, those tracks are loaded into the cache, and therefore into RAM.

But as you know, all units of the current generation, that is, from 2017 to the present day, use the same architecture. So, same SoC, same amount of RAM. And on this architecture, the onboard RAM is 2 GB.

And 2 GB isn’t much on a device in 2025.

RAM is used by:

  • The Linux kernel
  • Engine OS, which already occupies almost half of it
  • Various services/APIs, depending on whether they are enabled or not (SoundCloud, Tidal, Apple Music, Engine Lighting, etc.)
  • The use of effects/audio signal processing
  • Various system sub-services (Network Protocol, Engine Connect, Stagelink, MIDI Controller, Ableton Link, etc.)
  • The sampler and sound samples.

In the end, once all of this is loaded and started, there isn’t much left available. On a dual-layer player like an SC6000, you have 600/700 MB of RAM available,

that is, 300/350 MB for each layer.

Imagine that on 4-deck units like a Live 4 or Prime 4/4+, this gives you 150-175 MB of available cache space per deck, since you have the same amount of free RAM but for 4 decks instead of two.

And you also have to make sure you don’t completely saturate the RAM to prevent any slowdowns or system crashes.

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45

After using the system overlay to diagnose why I’m getting pauses in the music on the Prime Go+ when playing out, it is definitely lack of RAM. I have also noticed that after unloading both decks the available RAM doesn’t recover to the amount available previous to the decks being loaded.

The unit was released last November and never got a RAM upgrade which I find bizarre 5 years after the original.

I’m using MP4 files (100 to 200mb each) so that seems to be the crux of the issue, but they are supported by the player so should be able to be played without the music pausing.

I may raise a support ticket but if it ever does get looked at I’ll probably have moved on before a fix is put in place. Unlikely due to the low base RAM in the units.

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It all depends on how the kernel actually manages RAM.

It’s possible that when a track is ejected, the previously allocated space isn’t immediately freed but marked as available for rewriting on the next track load. In this case, the kernel acts as if this RAM space were a sort of reserved space for that deck. This can give you the impression that the space isn’t freed.

The test to perform would be to load two different 200 MB tracks onto each deck, observe and note the remaining available RAM, eject the tracks, and then load two new tracks, different from the first two, onto each deck.

And observe whether the remaining disk space has changed drastically. If you get more or less the same remaining available space, it means that the memory area has been marked as allocated to the deck and available for rewriting on the next load.

If, on the other hand, the free memory space decreases by the same amount as the track size with each new load, then yes, there’s a problem. But I think if that were the case, the development team would have noticed it.

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Why are you playing mp4 videos on a music player? At least did you try playing mp4 videos on a CDJ and see if it works? Is this the reason why denon wasn’t adopted in clubs?

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Because I’m generally a video DJ and there’s no point maintaining two separate collections. They play fine on VDJ, on my tablet, on my PC and in the car. No issue with the files and according to the Prime Go+ specs they are supported.

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Is it realistic to expect same performance on a fixed hardware setup when using mp3 vs flac vs mp4 files?

I guess each person will have a different answer.

I’m stripping my mp3 files from metadata and nonstandard characters in filenames so I guess I’m on the opposite side of spectrum, cannot give an objective opinion on this.

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I would argue maybe not? :man_shrugging:t2:

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Audio and video are stored as separate streams in an MP4 container. I would expect that the video stream is not loaded and ignored. Otherwise this should be considered a bug in Engine DJ.

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Well hopefully someone from the dev team will be following this thread and investigate accordingly.

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I mean… i thought you did a great job escalating this in other threads. :smiley:

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The X18XX is a single pcb design (aside from the crossfader). Warranty repair often means replacing the entire mixer.

The SC6000 got put in the hands of a handful of influential Deejays, but only a couple were able to travel with the hardware. The rest were left hoping someone local had 6000’s for them to play on.

Shops haven’t been able to get the players for a while, like a long while now. A lot of shops haven’t pulled em and refunded preorders altogether (AMS for ex.).

warranty service is hit or miss. Some people had a great experience while others were stuck waiting weeks for repairs/replacements (personally, my experience was always positive).

When Pioneer went all in on making themselves the standard, they had reps visiting every major club. They gave away a bunch of equipment to venues, so that it would already be there when deejays wanted to use it. At the time, they just had a larger marketing budget for the CDJ1000 than InMusic did at the time of launch for both the sc5000 and sc6000.

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I’ve got it… :person_raising_hand:t2:

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56

That article is nonsense….. Clearly damage control attempting to flip the script..

Only thing it proves is DJ’s like the “Pioneer DJ” logo on their gear and doesn’t prove they love AT products any better.. Once the Pioneer DJ supply chains dry out the truth will be told..

Everyone knows Denon DJ has the best features and support around. A continuing evolution.. Only gripe… They need better (larger & smoother) jog wheels with more adjustment paired with a top of the line dac for quality sound.

Pioneer DJ shot themselves in the foot when they decided to rebrand as AT.. A mistake that will go down in DJ history as possibly one of the biggest..

From a new product standpoint (examples)… The Opus and AZ clearly lack frequent updates and support… The Opus is like a product that’s half finished.. No slip mode.. Limited zone out capabilities etc..

The AZ besides a rough launch with freeze ups and a few screens popping off during shipping.. :joy: Doesn’t even have all of the pro connectivity of the XZ to properly connect a DJS-1000 unless you burn an extra channel and use the headphone jack to make an in/out loop what a joke.. It’s like having basic stripped down version of pro connectivity vs premium pro in XZ…. Ooooooooo but you get wireless headphones though.. lol :joy: Which one would you rather have?? A step backwards IMO.. :thinking::thought_balloon:

With the AZ you even need SERATO to unlock Crossfader Start and Channelfader Start which should have been allowed in standalone mode by default as in the FLX10. Another dropped ball…

Atleast with the Prime 4/4+ you get Crossfader Start… Too bad no Channelfader Start as I feel that wasn’t clearly thought out as they go hand in hand with one another.. But better than having nothing at all.. :blush:

I will give Pioneer DJ “kudus” for a well made and designed DDJ-FLX10 as it’s nearly perfect in every way if only it had a screen and was standalone….. Then everyone else should be afraid IMO..

As for cosmetics… Both “Pioneer DJ” and “Denon DJ” are great pro gear logos proudly displayed at music festivals all over…. The branding looks geeat.. Although, No performance benefits name branding is just important as it is when buying a car…. :automobile:

With that said… The AT name and logo s@$ks lol :joy: as it just doesn’t look right at all…..

If anyone at AT had any brains they would be replacing the abbreviated AT wording and that funny looking half circle logo with “AlphaTheta DJ” branding on the back and sides of their latest gear… I should really get paid for this name saving suggestion!! lol :joy:

Atleast that sticks out better and makes it look somewhat more polished and more professional as something that I’m sure the Pioneer DJ guys can relate too and accept better (besides going back to the Pioneer DJ branding of course). YMMV :blush:

Although Pioneer DJ lacks in support and firmware updates they however excel and make up for it in seeking out and obtaining some of the worlds top dj’s and has them use and test their gear… This is one major factor… Especially when young kids see James Hype spinning up effortlessly on a rise with a pair of DDJ-2000’s, 3000’s… I’m sure “some” of them are thinking how cool it would be to be like him and use the exact same gear he plays on..

As for Denon DJ… You can count on the established name, great continuing support, always evolving and I feel the best is yet to come…

I would really luv to see them get more top dj’s onboard but some dogs (meaning dj’s) just don’t want to learn new tricks and not interested in changing brands even though it may be better…

*As for the future….. Perhaps a fully standalone four channel “hybrid” of a monster unit that can run PC software to the likes of VDJ along with killer, incredibly smooth large jog wheels is the future… Now that would be a game changer.. :fire::fire::fire:…… :peace_symbol:

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At the time of release of the SC5000, the (now called) Engine OS firmware was so weirdly awful that I was thinking either they were the victim of industrial espionage or maybe InMusic was farming out its Linux-based development to the same exact Eastern European dudes that Gemini was using for the MDJ, not just with the number of issues, but the similarity of them. Maybe a shared code base. I chocked up the difference in sound quality of course to the respective product manager’s choices on things like audio decoder and the key change software licensed. The weird oversights and bugs, though, were initially almost identical. Once we got the jog bends working on the MDJ the best that’s ever been done on any DJ player, though, I leaned towards deciding it was just a weird coincidence.

Other than the original CDJ-1000 not having a true digital output (and maybe something about playing Karaoke disks, if memory serves me), I don’t recall anyone every complaining about their reliability. They showed up in Vegas almost immediately. In fact, after release early at like the next 1 or 2 NYE, I saw a dude play out with them a whole multi-hour show next to Bally’s or Flamingo or something there. Rock solid the whole night that I could see. The equivalent players from Numark at the time were the Axis 8, and they had a ton of issues. I remember Elliot Marx diligently working with me to fix the various software problems, but the hardware was borderline lost cause. The Prime stuff was equally problematic from a software standpoint, it just didn’t have quite as many hardware design issues, but still significantly different to Pioneer DJ quality control.

If Pioneer DJ / Alpha Theta had ever tweaked some features & capabilities of the original USB-using tabletop DJ media player models (and beyond) they’d already released, quality of life improvements, relatively minor and very doable suggestions I had, I never would have bothered with Gemini or new Denon DJ Prime stuff. I used the old Japanese Denon DJ 5500s for practicing vinyl without wearing my styli and records, but the Pioneers were less finicky live and stressful. And then when I had to go very portable, I would carry around the ADJ Versadeck all-in-one console thing in a backpack. Literally only tried Gemini and then Denon DJ Prime (because the Gemini progress was hitting a brick wall) because Pioneer DJ were making fools of themselves trying to argue with me about things like jog bend, pitch fader resolution, key lock functionality, and I’m probably forgetting something else. Their CDJs’ audio fidelity were increasingly testing worse with each generation over the digital outs, anyway, so I took a leap of faith. Not sure in retrospect it was a great idea. I could have just moved over to a laptop and controllers. But InMusic is receptive, trying, and not just abandoning their lineup, so that’s an improvement in the industry.

I don’t know how much they’ll be saving not paying anymore licensing on further product sales to Pioneer of Japan and whoever owns whatever the original Rekordbox stuff is based on. Clearly they decided a name change and annoying people with a database changeover was less costly than the licensing fees they’ve been paying, and they’re still operating for the time being.

This is certainly the weakest Pioneer DJ / Alpha Theta have ever been in terms of market sway in like 25 years during this transitional phase, though, which means InMusic has an opportunity to iron out their basics and seize the moment.

Oh, and “Change Your Rider” was a bad slogan. InMusic needs to promote not having such gear stipulations in riders or being rider free in that regard or something. Promote gear flexibility, but they have to prove that’s a valid option to people. Thinking anyone’s going to force rental companies or clubs to have Prime gear was ridiculous. The players took a dump right in front of Stonehenge, for crying out loud. No riders were going to change in favor of Prime for anyone that wasn’t being paid to do that.

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Last night I was in a bar and I ran into a fellow DJ who also uses SC6000Ms and an X1850.

We were just sitting there chatting over drinks when he told me that a Belgian guy named Stéphane Wilson, who runs a booking agency and Onib Radio, had posted an ad on his Facebook page to sell sets of 2xSC6000Ms + X1850s.

Apparently, he has three sets available: 6 SC6000Ms and 3 X1850s. All the equipment is still in its box and has never been used or even unpacked in any of the sets, and he’s asking less than €3,000 for each set.

So I asked my fellow DJ why he was selling new products at such a ridiculously low price and he replied that it was because he wanted to rent them out but never succeeded, so he had bought 3 sets but nobody wanted to rent them and no DJ was asking for them.

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Oh, I put such sets on my rider once, only to get a call from the AV rental, stating he had no clue where he should subrent these players, and quite arrogantly asking why I wasn’t playing with CDJs like everyone else….

apart from that last (arrogant) question, it seems that guy you are referring too didn’t market having these players available in rental enough. Otherwise some other rental firms would definitely have found him…

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Well, my friend was telling me that this person had offered them for rent, but every time he offered them, the DJs wanted a CDJ setup, even NXS2s and a DJM.

Go figure… Anyway, €/$3000 for a brand new, never-opened set of two SC6000Ms and a brand new, never-opened X1850 is a great deal for someone looking to get a complete setup at a lower cost.

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