Article: What Happened to Denon DJ? Why Better Features Couldn’t Beat AlphaTheta Pioneer

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21

For me this discussion is fairly simply summed by comparison below:

After Nokia, I went the Apple iOS route, because of the sweet touchscreen experience. Once being part of that ecosystem, I see no reason to change to an Android device.

Same goes for Android users. They usually won’t change to an iOS device and stay in their Android ecosystem.

The only difference with above and the DenonDJ/Pioneer comparison, is that venues, festivals, repairshops still only support AT-Pioneer. If that doesn’t change, there might not be a SC6000 successor any time soon. Which would be a shame.

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One frustrated user, who switched back to Pioneer, said they were tired of “begging for bedrock features”.

That “frustrated” user said:

Like I said, I’m not completely leaving, just reprioritizing.

So that article is some kind of bull chocolate sucked from the finger.

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You’re approaching the subject from your own perspective, taking a very narrow view, if I may say so.

Because, in your mindset, I imagine you believe everyone DJs in the same way and with the same needs as you.

Let me explain my own situation to illustrate my point.

I currently own two SC6000M players, purchased in early 2021, which I love because they had everything I needed in terms of features at the time of purchase (roll, slicer, loop encoder, motorized platter, etc.). And I still enjoy using them just as much…

But, and yes, there is a but, my DJing style has evolved compared to four years ago. At the time, simply doing beatmatching and mixing in the traditional way with EQ was enough for me because I hadn’t tried or experimented with anything else…

Then Virtual DJ’s Stems 2.0 came out, which made me reinstall the program, which I hadn’t used in a while.

While Stems 1.0 hadn’t convinced me because the separation quality was so poor, Stems 2.0 were a real game changer in my mixing process from a creative point of view.

And today I’m so used to using them in my DJing style that I get frustrated when I switch to standalone equipment that doesn’t have them at all, or only partially (no FX stems on Denon DJ products, for example).

And the need to pre-analyze tracks isn’t comfortable in my workflow, where I work by feel.

The reality is that I spend more time using my laptop with VDJ and my LC6000s + Z2 than using my DJM and SC6000Ms.

I don’t have to do any special preparation, no track pre-analysis, no stem pre-rendering; everything happens live when I load the track onto the deck in just a few seconds. There’s no export process to storage media. I just have to keep my files organized.

I have a regular residency at a bar and also at a small club every Friday night. The club is equipped with an RX3, and in two minutes I arrive, set up my laptop, plug in two cables, open VDJ, and I’m ready to go. Admittedly, that’s maybe a minute and a half longer than my fellow Saturday night resident who only uses USB drives. But I have the full creative power of VDJ behind me, and I can do things he doesn’t even understand and could never do on his USB drives (live mashups, etc.).

My point is that no matter how powerful standalone products become, they will never catch up to the computing power and creative possibilities offered by software. Today, most developments and new features are software-based, and you need the necessary processing power to keep up with them.

With a standalone product, you’re stuck/limited by the embedded hardware, which is often already outdated, only moderately powerful, and simply chosen to meet the machine’s current needs. This hardware doesn’t leave much room for future upgrades with new features.

With my current laptop and my LC6000s, I’m set for at least the next 10 years while still enjoying any new features that might come my way.

So yes, standalone controllers are fine if you want to do basic beatmatching, but if you want to do more advanced things, you’re not even close to what a laptop with a simple controller allows you to do.

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Exactly this. I have spent far far more time creating and curating my collection in Engine for the Prime Go+ (which is far more of a hassle) where VDJ is simplicity itself. Put new tracks in the correct place, start it up and they are added to the DB and scanned automatically. Drag a track to the deck, stems rendered live at 30x the song speed and off you go. And as I said above it’s also reliability and confidence that keeps me tied to the PC/VDJ setup.

After seeing the experiences some of my friends had with the Prime 4 and + (and the fact they’re all using them with VDJ rather than standalone) I thought long and hard about it and rather than getting a Prime 4+ and using Engine, I’ve invested £2k in a new Macbook Pro for DJ use instead.

The other thing that gets me is software development time. I recently reported a bug with VDJ and it was fixed and live in a couple of days. I reported a bug with Engine on the Prime Go+ in November last year and it’s still not fixed.

As I said it’s a mix of the fact I need reliability and hassle of using Engine that made the decision for me. I did try to embrace change but the old way of working is still easier and more reliable.

I’m not here to stick the boot in, just to share my personal experiences in the hope that these comments will be taken on board and that will help the product improve in the future.

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@Gaian , @Homeland101

Perhaps standalone products simply aren’t suited to your needs, and the best option is a simple controller, like a Rane One MK2 or a Performer, since they have dedicated Stems functions. However, saying that preparing playlists with Engine DJ is complicated is ridiculous, unless you actually want to create smart playlists. For now, it’s a bit limited. But if we assume your folders are already prepared on your computer, everything is done with a single drag and drop (provided you create a root folder), and voilà, you have a folder structure identical to your computer’s. Then, you analyze the files, and finally, you export them with a simple drag and drop to your dedicated storage device. I won’t go into the details of the features because when products are released, if you take even a little interest before buying, you already have an idea of ​​what the player can and can’t do. I have Djay Pro, Serato DJ Pro + MixEmergency, and most recently VDJ Pro (for karaoke), but I’ll only use it for that. I’m satisfied with the features currently offered by the Denon Prime range. The most important thing for me is having the basic functions, and the rest is a bonus, some of which I’ll probably never use. At the time, I bought the product knowing this (despite the fear of it crashing during an event or something…), and so far, it hasn’t happened to me (knock on wood). My clients are mainly happy with the music I play at events. I see DJs using older CDJ-1000MK3s and dual BST players, and they’re satisfied with them. The most important thing is the music and what we do with the players to satisfy our clients so they stay on the dance floor as long as possible.

The less I take my computer with me to events, the better I feel!

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@DjMell26

I never said that managing and organizing playlists on Engine is complicated; it isn’t, we agree on that.

But for me, it’s a hassle and an extra step. And I’d rather spend an extra minute and a half setting up my laptop and plugging in two cables when I get to the club’s RX3 or the bar’s SC Live 4 than spend dozens of minutes organizing my playlists and exporting them.

But my main issue isn’t really library management; if that were all, it would be manageable.

The central point of my thinking is rather the following question:

Why continue investing in a standalone device like a Prime 4+ or even its hypothetical future replacement (or any standalone product from a competing brand) that:

1 - is expensive to buy

2 - is already largely outdated in terms of hardware processing power (the Prime 4+ was released in 2023 and the Prime 4 in 2019, both equipped with a 2014 RK3288 SoC and 2 GB of RAM)

3 - is therefore limited by its onboard processing power, which is less future-proof regarding the emergence and implementation of new, processing-intensive features, for example, anything based on AI processing or heavy algorithms.

4 - you still need a powerful PC to analyze your tracks and, above all, to pre-calculate your stems if you want to work with it.

I currently have a laptop with a I have an i5-12450H, 16 GB of RAM, and an RTX 4060 that performs on-deck-load stem separation 2.0 at 30x the track playback speed, meaning approximately 6 to 7 seconds in the background without any slowdown (the GPU is entirely dedicated to this task).

If tomorrow, in the near future, or in three years, VDJ releases stems 3.0, even more precise but more resource-intensive, I have the necessary processing power to take advantage of it immediately. I don’t have to wait for a company manufacturing standalone products to try and implement it on outdated, limited, or aging hardware.

At worst, I need to upgrade from 16 to 32 GB of RAM? I’ll just add more RAM.

What I’m trying to say is, why keep buying unnecessary things like the knobs, faders, chassis, and audio circuitry? By upgrading every 3 to 5 years in the hope of keeping up with technology with a standalone product, even though that part works perfectly well, what really matters is the part that manages the computing power to meet technological needs.

Without even needing a $2500 MacBook (useless), a decent PC for under $1000 will set you up for 10 years. Is your controller starting to wear out? Simply replace it.

Over 10 years, you will probably have spent four times less money with the laptop + controller combo than buying two much more technologically limited standalone devices at €2500 each.

From a purely rational point of view, the power/price/durability ratio is far more favorable for the controller + laptop combo than for the standalone device.

To be honest, I considered selling my SC6000M at one point to get a Performer, but since it works perfectly well… With VDJ as well, I don’t really see the point. And if for some reason I want to be able to use them without a laptop, even if I’m more limited, I can. With the Performer, I can’t.

That’s why I’m not sure I’ll jump on the bandwagon of the next generation of standalone hardware. I could be wrong, but I think that whatever they release, it won’t be revolutionary enough to justify an upgrade compared to what I can do with my laptop + VDJ and my LC6000s.

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Laptop DJing is so bad c’mon guys stop trolling

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No trolling here, just the expression of a detailed and reasoned personal opinion. You obviously have the right to disagree and hold a different viewpoint.

In fact, I don’t believe in the future of standalone products in DJing for the reasons I mentioned in my previous post. Technological evolution is happening too fast these days, and the investment for standalone products is too high considering the limited onboard processing power, which will increasingly struggle to keep up with the development of CPU/GPU-intensive features.

And finally, if you think about it for a moment, what exactly is a standalone product? It’s simply a MIDI controller, a tablet, and an audio circuit all in one chassis, running on a Linux kernel and a single application (EngineOS in the case of Denon DJ).

The only difference compared to a laptop and controller combo is that the processing power isn’t integrated into the chassis but is handled externally by the laptop.

I think the real revolution will come when we have tablets/iPads so powerful and efficient (which is already the case) that companies like Virtual DJ and Serato develop mobile/tablet/iPad versions of their software. Djay is already doing it.

If tomorrow Denon releases a product in the form factor of a Prime 4+ that’s a controller with high-quality audio circuitry and just a stand where I can place an Android tablet (or an iPad for those who prefer Apple) of my choice with VDJ, similar to a Mixon 8 Pro but with a standard club-style asymmetrical layout and 7-inch jog wheels, it might be the only product that interests me. The Mixon 8 doesn’t suit me because I don’t like the symmetrical layout, and I’m not even sure it would work with Android anyway.

Because the day my tablet or iPad becomes inadequate, I simply replace it with a new model, keeping the controller functionality, which works perfectly.

And it’s just as discreet as working with a standalone unit.

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I think it’s a shame they didn’t include a mini PC internally!

I bought a NiPoGi Ryzen 7 7730U (8C/16T, up to 4.5 GHz), 32 GB DDR4, and a 1 TB M.2 SSD for €440, and I can easily run VDJ Pro with Windows 11 Pro. So, if you remove the 1 TB M.2 SSD and the operating system, the product retails for €300. Therefore, if a major subsidiary like inMusic were to include this kind of system with a Linux OS in Akai, Denon, or Numark products, I think the cost would be well below €250. I believe that with a good power supply to run these players, these products could easily last 10 years, if not more.

I would be willing to put up 3200 euros.

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I largely agree.

A mini PC like this is far more powerful than any proprietary embedded hardware based on a Rockchip architecture. Even the most powerful current Rockchip RK3588 is completely obsolete in terms of performance compared to a mini PC.

One drawback, however, is the poor GPU performance of most current mini PCs in this price range. And GPU power is essential in VDJ since the GPU is responsible for calculating stem separation in real time. But from an upgrade perspective, it’s still better than proprietary hardware (the ability to increase RAM, add an NVMe SSD, or install third-party applications).

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The M4/M5 base Apple chip can calc stems 24/25x and the M4 Pro 30x with the on-chip graphics. But as people have previously said In-Music won’t put that level of chip in a standalone player.

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hell, @Gaian , you made me question my decision to move away from Traktor and a laptop :wink:

The DJ scene is technically moving so fast that a hardware product can’t possibly keep up. The SL-1200mkII had a little over 25 years mainstream relevance before becoming obsolete. But seeing the innovations are now made at a much faster pace in software like VDJ, its hard for a hardware product not to be obsolete within 5 years…

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VDJ is getting a bit behind now though. Still no support for either Apple music or Spotify and still no fluid beatgrid. The stems implementation is top notch however and no software can have absolutely everything.

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No. It’s not a bias, it comes from a place of 40 years of working and touring as a DJ and being at the inception of DJ’s and DJ culture.

20 of those years from a high level technical support, system design and sales for a global NA audio manufacturer (the same company umbrella that makes dishwashers), I’m the guy you talk to when the call center can’t help you, or the guy is the manufacturers liaison to the rep firm. It comes from a place of being in the back rooms of product R&D and launch making sure the roadmaps a met and thinking ahead how you can’t break that product and if you do how it doesn’t happen again.

So just to be clear, my perspective comes from “Innovate of Die”. If you’re given the tool box with so many possibilities to further your craft and community and you’re still using a spoon. Then IMHO the problem is in front of the crossfader and not the manufacturer.

I’ll take that bet, and it will be less than 18mo.

Spoon way of thought.

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with all due respect for your DJ career, I still think you are missing the 2 major issues here:

  • that the 16 year old kids who start DJing don’t start with expensive standalone hardware, but with cheap software licenses running on the computer which is present in their home already. Those are many more than the people who are still in it after 40 years, they are the base of the pyramid of DJ population.
  • That people like to stick to what they know.

combined, I think it has a certain marketing value if Engine DJ would function as DJ software instead of librarian only. You drag beginner DJs into your eco-system using a cheap software license, and then start to let them drool over your all-in-one hardware which they can use using the same library… Oh yeah, and lets not forget those that some want to use vinyl timecode from time to time, be it because of nostalgia or turntablism. They would have to switch between platforms too, which is a hassle for many.

You could argue the the Engine eco-system as it is right now is an ecosystem without algae…

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You completely understood my point.

Ten years ago, hardware was important because many things were handled by hardware; effects, for example, were managed by DSPs or similar devices.

Nowadays, the only thing that’s truly important in terms of hardware (aside from the audio circuitry, which obviously needs to be high quality) is the CPU/GPU/RAM combination. This is because more and more features that were once handled by hardware are now managed by software.

Denon DJ even did this themselves by disabling the DSP and completely rewriting the effects in software within Engine OS.

Add to that the management of the Zplane timestretch algorithm (also managed by software) + perhaps tomorrow stem separation algorithms + in a few years, a revolutionary new AI-based algorithm that will bring a new feature we haven’t even considered today, etc., etc…

So today, what really matters is the software.

The problem with standalone products is that key components like the SoC/CPU chosen by manufacturers are already modest and often several years old to reduce costs.

The RK3588, which is rumored to be the next generation of Denon DJ equipment, remains a cheap, entry-level processor that already dates back to 2020. This SoC is already 5 years old, can you believe it! 5 years in the world of CPU technology, in an era where AI is progressing at an exponential rate, is an eternity.

So standalone products are future-proof, but only to a certain extent. Adding resource-efficient features is fine, but adding new features based on heavy algorithms or requiring intensive GPU processing/decoding is a different story.

With a laptop equipped with a decent CPU/GPU combination, you don’t even have to ask the question; the available computing power is immense in comparison, whereas the SoC of a standalone product is already obsolete and offers little headroom.

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Marketing shows it’s 35-54 not 16yo who are using the DJ gear purchased (those “16yo” must be having a life crisis after the divorce) and are usually big ticket items. If you use the mommy & daddy are buying it for them you’re wrong, while Gen Z do have less purchasing power they do tend to self purchase. The top 2 hardware sales players are Pioneer and Numark, AiO systems are good sellers for both. Projected sales for DJ gear will be relatively flat till 2027 and at the same levels as 2021 ± 4% and see a projected 6% growth to 2033.

After you gear flex that you don’t use and being so concerned for the kids. Then why are you still here? You have you set workflow and preferred hardware and don’t believe in the Denon ecosystem, it’s an honest question.

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I wouldn’t take all these projections gleaned from marketing studies here and there at face value.

Because they don’t take into account the emergence of new, so-called “game-changing” features that could completely disrupt the market. No one knows if tomorrow software might offer a feature that would truly change the game to the point that existing hardware couldn’t keep up.

That’s more or less what happened when the Stems 2.0 “on the fly” came out; everyone was talking about them, everyone wanted them. Manufacturers tried to implement them on existing hardware without success, and the few attempts resulted in mediocre quality (Prime 4+).

Who knows what might come out in the next two or three years that could turn the market upside down, encouraging consumers to massively turn away from standalone products?

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I hate, and I cannot stress this enough, absolutely hate that you have a point there.

It doesn’t take a lot of reading here on the forum to realize the people who are most disappointed in Engine OS are power DJ software users: stem junkies, 300gb library hoarders and non-believers in metadata.

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I could mirror some of the QC, reliability, and parts availability issues mentioned above, and I could even go into detail about my objections on changes in the latest software, but I believe it’s more fundamental and part of a pattern that has not been interrupted:

Denon DJ was still in the game in clubs back with CDs. Their rack units were common even when the CDJ-1000mk3 was around.

With the advent of ubiquitous USB drives and SD cards, things changed and there was an expectation you should be able to just use one drive or card and have it seen on all decks without hassle, any size drive, any number of tracks, any size tracks.

The 5500 required a crossover cable for a goofy form of linking that was done by master/slave networking, and there were track number limitations.

The 2900/3900 link was as bad as Gemini’s.

The SC Prime Engine Connect Link is still unpredictable and inferior to Pro Link. Sometimes drives do not share, and files are limited in size to 270MB. If you want to play a track larger than 270MB, you can only load it on the player the drive is connected to.

Unless Engine Connect drive linking is dramatically improved, the only way InMusic has a chance making big inroads into clubs is when high speed internet and reliable streaming music services become more ubiquitous in clubs than thumb drives, which doesn’t seem likely anytime soon.

I don’t even find Tidal entirely reliable for DJing purposes at home. Soundcloud is a vast dump of Sirius satellite radio rips with call outs still intact and compilations of 1 minute samplers that ■■■■ me off even more than the call outs.