I’m not entirely familiar with this site, though found this article intriguing. https://midnightrebels.com/what-happened-to-denon-dj-why-better-features-couldnt-beat-alphatheta-pioneer
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Looks like AT paid for another fluff piece to save face from their recent firmware fiasco 
AT is scared because:
- They have nothing in the pipe and Denon can release a new device based around some innovation from of the features and hardware of the MPC Live 3.
- They’ve been caught fleecing their base with the CDJ3000X.
- Their paid feature business model isn’t generating enough for shareholders.
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It raises a good point though, that whatever “industry standard “
competitor Denon release, it does need to be rock solid from the outset. I love my SC5000s, but I have had (recently) 1 deck going down so using to play dual layer, hdd crashing the other deck when using across link, WiFi failing on one deck, grounding issue on X1800, 1 channel going down.
I know mine aren’t the latest model, but these issues have intermittently happened since I purchased them (out of warranty), and the service options are crap (paying £100 just to be told how much it’s then going to cost to fix isn’t really what I’m looking for).
Build the next ones so they just run and run before new firmware comes along, and Alpha Theta can be caught.
Another major issue with in-music is the availability of spare parts. I ordered a part for my Prime Go+ which took 6 weeks as it was in Germany rather than the UK and another part I have on back order is 6 to 8 weeks for the same reason. Support gave me the parts free of charge as a goodwill gesture (which is appreciated) as they are low value but I would have easily paid to get them quicker.
Having worked in logistics I simply can’t understand why inter branch transfers take so long as they could send the part between Germany and the UK in 24 hours if need be. None of the parts were available outwith Denon in the UK, but as a comparison I needed a new 12v power socket for my Pioneer FLX10 which I ordered on eBay and got in 48 hours and soldered in place.
I would say maybe a week to 10 days would be acceptable, but 6 to 8 weeks is really ridiculous by any metric.
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Another spoilt brat cobbling together their own little burps and using phrases like “every DJ that I’ve spoken to has said … “
Give em a mouse and everyone’s trying to still be an influencer lol
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Try ordering replacement faders for a XONE96, 21 weeks.
People need to stop blaming the manufacturers when it’s actually the supply chain.
Fine however in this case Denon do have the parts, just not in the UK.
I do second the “bedrock features” gripe though. How long did we have to beg for some form of relocate? Remember how platter-hold + CUE was only implemented after I made a big scene on this forum? How there is still no way to re-active the current loop using the encoder, while that loop keeps randomly be deactived when pressing CUE and PLAY? These are things experienced users from other brands very easily notice…
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That is a definitely AT sponsored article but that article is definitely not fully wrong (even though it looks like they ■■■■■■■■■■/glanced through the forum/FB page looking for problems).
Did not read the article but here are my 2 cents on what I think might hold back InMusic
People mostly talk about features, build quality and price, but few are talking about the lineup range and ecosystem and how it affects a brand’s presence.
AlphaTheta has products in all price ranges from the cheapest controllers to the most expensive mixers and players under the same brand (ignoring the recent brand change) vs InMusic which splits the portfolio in different brands for different audiences creating choice overload.
Either InMusic makes a risky move and consolidate everything under one brand and split their hardware in series, or expand the portfolio for each brand. (But I think the second option might be even worse, spending 3X on R&D for different brands to compete on a niche market)
Engine Dj needs to grow and work as a performance software to support controllers.
OneLibrary might bridge the ecosystem gap in the future, but the the lack of a wide portfolio can still impact market share.
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Grow how? Be another DVS software and controller maker?
The whole Engine ecosystem is to be laptop/computer free to DJ, since day one Denon has said Engine software is prep software only and have the ability to have Denon hardware work with other DVS platforms. IMHO Denon hardware and OS is far more mature than AT/Pioneer.
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Denon needs to release xdj 700 competitor. I said it multiple times already
Either release a mini sc3000 or release a numark equivalent player running engine os
Yes
But why? Why can’t it be both?
Hot take: after all these years Engine Dj is barely a prep software, it’s more of an export utility. I use Rekordbox to manage my music unfortunately.
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That’s the whole point above: Engine caters only to a “part of an ecosystem”, because the whole ecosystem (read as all DJs on the planet) contains DJs who prefer a DVS system. Some like to switch around: one day they play turntablism with a DVS, the next they use an all in one, and so on.
given that currently DJ software requires you to have your library in a native format, and conversion is a relatively complex process where you have to know what you are doing, it might scare people that they have no “easy” DVS option anymore when using Engine.
if now Rekordbox does support DVS (ofcourse not free…), well, that’s for some a strong advantage toward Rekordbox…
(I gave up on DVS some time ago so don’t look at me, I’m only trying to understand the argument…)
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We noticed a very clear pattern with our students at the dj school in the last 3 years.
Students with low budgets will go for a ddj flx 4 or a second hand ddj 400, we noticed that all of them at some point upgrade to a bigger cdj controller or a standalone xdj, because the upgrade path is simple and familiar, they already have their entire collection in Rekordbox, why switch? Even if during training they were way more impressed by Denon, at that time they did not have the budget for Denon gear.
Students with higher budgets will mostly start with the SC Live 4 and use them till today, some will upgrade to Prime 4 or SC players, sometimes SC/LC combo.
The 3rd player on the market we see with about 5% of our students is NI+Traktor
We only had one Numark controller once, and it was from someone asking us to help it setup on his laptop, not a student.
There is no low budget entry point for Denon, and we see the effect this has with our students.
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Denon is a ecosystem. Pioneer/AT is a walled garden.
Pioneer/AT business model is to take your money, may I introduce you to the CDJ3000X and pay to unlock features.
IMHO also if you treat DJ culture like a puppy mill then you’re part of the problem. You’re not teaching your students the basic fundamentals, free will and choice, if you or they even breathe the word “industry standard” then you are doing a disservice and contributing to a tech-debt cycle. There is no “industry standard”, they make their own standards, there’s always options.
So. If you look at Denon/Numark it’s omitting a expensive laptop/computer for the beginner (RB7 requires newer hardware to operate even for free and their hardware requires RB7, no more RB6), it’s giving you options with different DVS software that’s free and no hidden unlocked features, it’s giving the DJ (so far 9 years) software and hardware feature updates that’s maturing without plonking cash down every 2-4 years, it’s giving the working DJ a free option for lighting control without more hardware. The ROI on Denon is much higher than Pioneer/AT, you’re just not seeing it because of “familiarity” and that’s called complacency.
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I largely agree with Johan & Prankie that Denon would greatly benefit from integrating a performance mode into Engine Desktop, and I’ve said this several times already. Here’s why:
By limiting itself to being just a simple preparation software, Denon DJ/InMusic is depriving itself of a crucial entry point into its brand ecosystem: controllers. This is especially important for beginners and aspiring DJs who don’t necessarily have the budget for a standalone product but already own a decent laptop.
Pioneer, at the launch of Rekordbox, had the same philosophy as Denon: prepare at home, export, and play. They long resisted the idea of Rekordbox being anything more than preparation and export software, until they realized that implementing a performance mode would be a great entry point for beginners into their ecosystem with controllers.
And without having the exact figures, I’d say I’m pretty sure that at least two-thirds of people who start out on an entry-level Pioneer/AT controller will then stay within the Pioneer ecosystem, either with a higher-end controller like an FLX10, or migrate to a standalone product like an RX3, or end up getting a pair of CDJ-3000s just to try and look like mainstream DJs—and this is without even mentioning industry standards.
Why? Quite simply because they’ve spent years since their first steps organizing their collections in rekordbox and they don’t want to do that work again elsewhere or look for conversion solutions. They’ve become captive to rekordbox, so it’s easier for them to stay in that ecosystem. Pioneer/AT hooked them with an FLX4, and now they’re hooked.
And this would also allow InMusic to no longer depend on a third-party company like Serato for Rane products.
So you might say, ‘Yet another performance software?’ Why bother? There are already plenty of options on the market.
Native Instruments Traktor? Affordable, but limited in terms of hardware integration, and frankly, they only integrate their own hardware now.
Virtual DJ? Powerful, supports a wide range of controllers, but rather expensive for a perpetual license purchase. Monthly payment plans exist, but many people are reluctant to pay $30 a month for software that doesn’t belong to them and will stop working if they unsubscribe.
Serato? Also expensive if you don’t have a controller that unlocks the pro license. I’m thinking of certain Numark controllers that only come with a Serato DJ Lite version.
So, if Engine has a performance mode, it can be bundled with any Numark or Rane controller, and could even slightly lower the price of Rane products, since there would no longer be any license fees to pay to Serato.
It benefits InMusic, It benefits the consumer, it benefits everyone.
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Benefit who? It benefits YOU.
Denon already has performance mode software. It’s called Engine OS, it’s embedded right into the hardware.
I hate to be glib but honestly the attachment to PC/laptop DJing is way too high, it’s like a addictive drug dependency, IMHO once a AiO DJ system comes out with a 12” touch screen it’s game over for laptops because open format DJs won’t have an excuse to haul a laptop and controller around. Pioneer/AT is already teaching their followers that AiO systems are the future with AZ and normalizing it to the mass market, you guys need to dig more into the DJ psychology & DJ marketing.
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Well personally my Lenovo laptop/VDJ/MCX8000 setup is ultra reliable and has been for years so much so I don’t have to worry about it not working.
My Prime Go+ sound glitches on every gig, it freezes the interface at random times and I am so worried something will go wrong I have about a million database backups.
That maybe explains why there is a difference.
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You may hate a laptop during your performance. I may hate a laptop during my performance.
But the reality is most 14-16 year old kids without money, but with a starting interest in DJing, already have some sort of laptop. And it’s easier for their broke parents (mortgage on house, car, electricity bills, …) to sponsor a software license so the kid can try DJing on his/her laptop, and later on, when the hobby really sticks to their kid, they might sponsor a controller. Only as that kid is maturing and now earning his own money he can save up for his/her own standalone controller. Problem is by now that kid has already locked himself into a certain software platform, and naturally wants to stick with what he knows. And that ain’t going to be Engine DJ/OS.
real world example here: I started on an illegal BPM Studio, then a self made mixer from spare parts, connected to the discman and CDROM drive I had lying around. After long negotiations my first record players were sponsored by my parents, these where cheap JBSystems Disco1000s, which cost 2*200 euro back then. I had to go work in construction, making mortar and delivering bricks to the masons to save up for a pair of Technics, a Denon 2100 and a Rodec… And by now I can go to the DJ Store and buy whatever gear I want, but that is NOT how I started out!
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