Wow and Flutter or Fluttering Wow!

I have 2x 1210 mk5g in storage back home (NZ), still have the boxes even. Love them to bits and will never sell them.

Now it might seem funny to alot of you, but in my 16 years of working/hobbyist pursuit of passionate and slightly dirty perfection of which the journey continues; although without vinyl…or latex these days usually. ‘Wow and flutter’ is actually a term I almost embarrassingly have only recently become acquainted with.

Having read other forums, where numbers are being compared. Why is it that the VL12 is on the high side? Its a rather open question I agree. I know for general listening it’s not really noticeable and indeed DVS developers are introducing counters to this very slight pitch drift.

Being an Engineer myself I guess my question more pertains to how what should be better manufacturing practices and automated machining in this day and age yield worse results? Does the increased torque of the VL have an effect and if so how? I’m Genuinely interested in I guess is the somewhat a dying art of turntable making.

Love the Vls btw they are gorgeous and different, the inner nerd in me wants a pair, although I have no room in this London flat (need room for the wife to do the ironing after all) or can justify it to the wife really… Shes only just coming around to the idea of a pair of SC5ks!

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Good question, have to dash … but will be back :smiley:

Was very interested in the VL12 but getting any information on this table is nearly impossible. No answers or confirmation on the wow & flutter specs, no firm release date. Why is this turntable so secret? Why not pictures of the back of the deck? Are there inputs and power there too, or just on the side?

C’mon Denon DJ, give us some more information. Particularly as to release date and W&F specs answers.

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Promised I’d be back, albeit a tad on the late side.

Let’s agree that it would have been nice if one of the DJ Staff active on this forum (and credit where credit is due, there are plenty of them and they are actively involved and answering questions, just not this one for some reason) had responded to your question. If only saying they didn’t have the answer right away but were going to find out for you.

I did find some specs, but all they mention is a rate below <x.x% (0,15% if I remember correctly), which - thanks to the “<”-sign - leaves a lot to be answered. Having the same W&F rating as other brands fits within this <x.x% after all. I agree with the OP that in essence anything under those levels is undetectable by the average club guest and as such not a legitimate worry. I do appreciate the curiosity from an engineering perspective though.

@lymbo1990: There are no pictures of the back I guess because there is nothing there. All connections are on the side (we can discuss if that was a clever move, but hey, it’s what Denon decided on). Side pics are clear. Audio and power on one side, led color and brightness and platter torque control on the other. Most other info can be found on the website and docs available. On the deeper technical (and practically less relevant) issues like W&F, see my above comment.

Clearly release dates deserve(d) some more clarity, with everyone waiting for these units :slight_smile:

The VL12 was first spotted a long time ago (under a glass hood), not sure when, but could have been NAMM 2016, so I can see how it’s become a bit of an enigma. It has changed from the earlier models I have seen, one of the clear chances being the (rim of the) platter just to name one.

I had the chance to play with them at the DanceFair in Holland earlier this month and they are very nice. Feel absolutely solid, like you’d expect from Denon. Eye for detail in finishing I would say. Tried the two torque settings (SL1200-ish and high) and the difference is impressive. You can stop the platter but it takes some serious pressure on the rim. I doubt there is much you can throw at it in a regular working DJ setting that it can’t handle. The side outputs/controls suddenly do make a bit more sense when you set up the TTs in battle mode, i.e. turned a quarter turn. Now the power/output connectors are at the back and the other controls on the front.

All in all these round of the Prime offering for all the vinyl/DVS loving DJs out there nicely. If you go with a Prime mixer or hybrid set up with SC5000s, this will be the TT to add. Nothing against it, and it looks awesome with the rest of the components.

Just my two cents, as usual.

p.s. I am quite sure that the Denon guys are working on getting the answers, as I have been witnessing them doing with all the other posts on these brand new forums. Pointing out what is not yet working flawlessly (without being judgemental about it) will no doubt help them improve their service to us, the customers. Being a moderator on a different forum, I know it takes some doing getting “into the groove, rhythm and flow” of things. So far I can only testify to a very willing staff, determined to make this a very good forum. So compliments to them.

Many other OEM branded turntable manufacture specs do say <0.1% however Mr V. Technics turntable W&F from what i have found online range from .01% to .03% It would be interesting to see the actual Cal certs and if different testing methods were used or if testing methods are just more accurate now.

Denon have gone to a lot of trouble and probably expense re inventing the wheel here, only for it not to roll as well as the old one…At least that is how many are/will be looking at it. A few peeps over at the Serato forum for example have already stated that <.15% is a no go for them. Has this turntable been realised too early? Another valid question perhaps.

I wouldn’t mind delving deeper into this…But I already have too many research topics on the go at work atm.

I Still think the Denons are pretty btw!

Again, saying something is below a certain level is clearly not the same as saying it is at that level. It could simply mean that you don’t want to release the real specs (yet), but you just stick to a good average level.

W&F is only a part of the equation of course. Things like rumble (according to Denon MUCH lower in the VL12s than in any other TT on the market now), pitch quality (resolution among other things) and a few other odds and ends.

So, I guess we’ll have to hold off judgement til we get hands on and preferably time in the booth with them.

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I know I’m the odd man out here because I’m interested in the VL 12 for listening purposes only. A lot of so-called audiophiles and DJ’s may think I’m crazy but I prefer Direct Drive turntables to most belt drive decks on the market today. The outstanding SL-1200MK2 wasn’t developed as a DJ deck, it evolved into one. I own an SL-1200MK2 and love it.

DJ Vintage, that’s why I ask if there may be RCA jacks and power on the backside of the deck. Because I won’t be using it in battle mode.

I know this is a DJ deck but I’m hoping it will be a better performer than the Pioneer PLX-1000. I’ve owned two of those and both had loose tonearm bearings. I suspect the VL-12 will be built much better. I also hope it will be a good choice for one that wants a solid DD turntable for home listening. I bit the bullet and pre-ordered one so I hope I’ve made a wise choice.

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As you said, it’s made for DJs, indeed opposite of the design plans for the 1200s.

From what I have seen/felt/heard (and I have seen both the Pioneer and the Denon live), I would still stick with it being a wise choice. I am gonna guess buying the new Technics SL (at, what, 3000 a pop wasn’t in the cards?).

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LOL. Nope $3000 wasn’t in the cards for sure. I’m not a 1%'er.

Your not wrong Mr Vintage!

Yea we need some input from Denon as this point.

I sent an email and ask about power and rca jacks on the back of the VL 12 and received this response:


Thank you for contacting me today. I’d be happy to assist you!

The RCA outputs are on the back.

Best Regards,

Hermann Bellanton

Technical Support & Return Authorizations Specialist inMusic Brands AIR | Akai Professional | Alesis | Alto Professional | Denon DJ | Denon Professional | ION Audio | M-Audio | Marantz Professional | Marq Lighting | MixMeister | Numark | Rane | SONiVOX

Typically Support do not have information for products prior to their release. More details will follow :slight_smile:

That’s the picture from Denon. I think if you look at a TT and you can see the tone-arm across and the the pitch-slider button, you are looking at the right-hand side, not the back. UNLESS … of course … it was designed to be used primarily in a quarter-turned fashioned.

This picture however

suggests otherwise. All labeling is “front” facing imho.

To put everyone out of his/her misery, let’s go with:

The Denon DJ VL12 Prime turntable has power and rca out connector on the side of the tone-arm. The torque settings, LED brightness and color controls can be found on the opposite side of the unit.

Thanks to both of you for your follow up. Dang, that may be a deal killer. Not sure if that will work well in a home audio setup. I can definitely see how this would be a plus for a DJ working in battle mode. Indeed this is a DJ deck. I may just need to give up on this venture and cancel my order before it ships.

Thanks again for your assistance. It’s much appreciated.

As you can see the connectors are very much recessed. A 90-degree power cord (not sure what it comes with) and I am pretty sure you can make the RCA cable turn the corner before it sticks out to the side. Both leads can then just exit at the back, next to the right-hand foot.

A nice cable organizer around it and good as gold I say.

True. Can always get a replacement power cord if needed. Shouldn’t be too bothersome. Thanks again. You’ve been very helpful. I take back my earlier criticisms. :slight_smile:

Now if you could just get me a solid release date. :stuck_out_tongue:

I’ll leave that to sbangs and company … LOL

She would still be a lovely piece to own Mr Lymbo. Would definitely become a conversation piece as well… it’s a thing of beauty.

You won’t notice the W&F at all for just pure listening pleasure only during long transitions when mixing.

The mystery continues. Are you all trying to be like Apple? :stuck_out_tongue_winking_eye: