I think the TV firmware holds back the picture a few milliseconds to compensate for the audio lag.
Interesting, I would imagine that feature to be device specific and also source dependant.
In my experience the native You Tube app on a 2018 Samsung TV doesn’t have great lip-sync over bluetooth. When using aptX transmitter and headphones it’s greatly improved.
These are MIDI controllers, they have to have to put through probably about 1/10000 of the data rate of audio. it might be way less latency involved, in fact thats likely from what I know about BT codec.
Apparently we have different definitions of fast / lag free. On computer displays, everything below 90 Hz lags to me even in UIs, in games it’s 120 at least I need. consoles all feel laggy to me (due to 60 or even 30 Hz urrrgh and the controllers as well. Just unresponsive)
Same with audio. on everything BT I ever tested there is noticeable latency, 16ms (AIAIAI Wireless +) is imperceptible on audio for me. Since it isnt on video when its much above 10 ms, I was surprised by that.
Lipsync is normally a HDMI feature, die they bring that to BT now? Anyway, if so, that means still it’s probably only fine because of the lip-sync (that measures the latency of the BT device and corrects it).
aptX
It might be specific, depending if theres a standard, I dont know any via BT, just HDMI for External Speaker systems and AVRs.
Im beginning to think the sync probably improved greatly with aptX due to way lower latency, not because it was synced in any way. but the 40 ms of aptX could be good enough for TV. It’s only about 1 frame
Obviously very bad since u got input devices then that (hopefully) dont lag like sh*t. Any interactive experience is basically ruined.
I thought I was in another thread. I missed that it wasn’t the discussion thread so deleted my posts to keep this on-topic.
I had the same thoughts. Moved it here.
The deleted ones could be moved also, but it will mixup the discussion now.
There are some great BT controllers out there with no perceivable latency. The nanoKEY and LDP8 Studio are great choices.
Obviously there is some latency (as there is with everything) but they are fast as any BT controller for any current game console.
I see. The offset is similar to what happens when connecting a soundbar via Bluetooth. There is usually an offset in the TV settings that stalls the picture. From memory, Samsung have it and my Philips Ambilight has it. Serato Video also has it if the video latency is noticeable.
Definitely source dependant. The Bluetooth lag is still there but by delaying the image you get a perfectly synced experience. I’m not sure how well it will work with visual lag when gaming.
Apologies for going off-topic here. I thought this was the general chat. I’ll bow out now!
They are. I was just highlighting the non-audio qualities that BT can be used for. It’s why I only highlighted the bit about musical instruments. BT as a HID device is great.
I have a BT MIDI controller and it doesn’t’t have a perceivable input delay. Just like a PS5 controller or a Nintendo Switch controller… it ps pretty much on the money. It doesn’t have to go through the audio processing.
I’m assuming so. I’ve never used a console with a Bluetooth sound bar so until I do I’ll just assume the visual side has a delay if the offset is turned on. Most people who have a sound bar would connect via eARC anyway which passes audio in sync with the video as a return channel.
Anyway…
Nope. We have the exact same definitions. I was not championing BT audio in any way… just pointing out a musical instrument can run BT sufficiently run within DJ gear happily (just not for audio). I just highlighted how TV manufacturers got around the lip-sync issues over BT by delaying the picture. It’s a workaround but not where live monitoring is needed.
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Yes. That is exactly right. For communication with MIDI controllers (not audio). They don’t have the codecs to deal with and the Bluetooth so produces snappy responses. They are great music instruments that rely on BT and work well.
I don’t get any sensation of lag with a PS5/ Switch controller when playing games. It all seems pretty snappy to me but then again I’m not a gamer. My TV is only 60Hz as I watch steamed Sky/iPlayer stuff most of the time.
Pretty much ruined… yes. It’s just one of the methods to try and help deal with a problem that can’t be fixed. Bluetooth audio just isn’t “there” yet.
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Edit: it’s a mess… moving posts don’t adhere to posting time. Next time I’ll move all together.
My bad.I won’t do that again Reece.
To summarise: No matter how much people try to fix it, Bluetooth is only good for communication and not so amazing for streaming audio (unless it’s AdaptX LL.
Next comment about a DJ box please!
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LC3 and LC3plus enters the room.
Which one… aptX or aptX LL? Both can be considered low latency, but one of them is much better than the other.
AptX™ is around 70ms, but some tech papers have said that in certain cases it can be as high as 100ms to 150ms. The LL version, which btw I actually own/use from time to time, is only 40ms. Can I hear that? Yes, of course I can. but the real question is, does a 40ms delay hinder me when I’m trying to make a smooth mix? Not really. I guess having to deal with all types of stuff over the last 30+ years in this hobby (crap, I feel old now 
), has made me much more flexible to things like that. Thinking about it now, I’d love to see how some DJ’s would handle live mixing in a large echo rich hall if their monitor(s) AND headphones went kaput. Horses come to mind. (an inside joke for some of my close old school DJ friends) 
Dare I say… for many people, a 40ms audio delay is (imo) acceptable and workable… but I’m sure some people out there consider their hearing to be “super human”. For them, anything that is not 0ms, is unacceptable. Not directed at anyone here of course. 
With that said, I can’t wait to get my hands on, and test out, an LC3 (or LC3plus) equipped transmitter and headphones to see how good they actually are with real world usage.
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I used to DJ in this barn of a place. It held around 2500 and was a small arena. It had the biggest echo and the system had a delay of what can only be described as 100 horses running though the room. Luckily the monitors were obscenely sized.
Another venue was in an old church with an awfully cheap sound system. Same again but without any decent monitoring. Awful but true learning curves.
The “horses” I mentioned are not from the actual echo/latency/delay itself, but from the off beat mixing someone does when the echos makes them think they are going to be bringing in a track on beat, but then completely messes up and lets the song keep playing off beat. The echos from a big space just makes it sound even worse. lol I had a Porkchop friend that used to call it “cavalos” (Portuguese for horses). In the mid 80’s when I had just started out, he used to say that out loud when my mix went sideways. I got better real quick after some teasing. Fun times/memories. 
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aptX low latency as stated.
If it was more than 60, the PS / Xbox would be only 60 or even 30 Hz in some games.
Seems that is the first approach to be taken seriously yes. Is there any hardware available now, though?
As I said, 16 ms (AIAIAI spec) is apparently fine, 50 or whatever aptX gave me was not…
Those RMX stations alone are dreams themselves … can´t find one for reasonable price for the life of me … i wish Denon made something similar to it or there was new unit
Yup, no one resells those things used at a reason price, they hold their value well. There was a rumor of a new RMX unit talked about a few months ago on reddit, I’d love to seem them make a new version that uses the USB routing on the new mixers (V10 and A9) to make it a 100% digital execution with a single cable.
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The Masterminds FX is a good alternative, some creative send/return wiring needed on none MS mixers but they are great… the new one has bpm sync echo included too.
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