Prime 4, volume & effects issues

Engine DJ Hardware Standalone Controllers
1

Hi all, I’ve been on the road for a few months and my P4 has been running beautifully on engine v2. Have just finally updated to the latest 3.1.1. The touch effects are a nice touch, but I am really struggling with two things, it’s changed the feel of the prime 4 so much that I feel I may have to roll back (maybe to 3.0?)

The main problem is my channel gain/levels. Normally most tracks sit at 0db nicely with the gain knob around 1 o’clock. One track in 30 I may need to nudge lower or higher slightly. I mainly play house so track levels are pretty consistent. But now, I am finding almost every track needs adjusting, from 11 o’clock to 2 o’clock so they sit at 0db. I don’t ever remember turning the gain that high unless it was an old hip hop track.

The other issue is the pre-fade effects, not having the sweep FX in cue/headphones. I read a 60 day old post explaining that it’s due to moving the effects from DSP to CPU. The problem is that I use cue to listen to exactly what I’m bringing into the next mix, which I believe is the point of cue. If anyone has come from analogue desks, pre-fade listen is helpful to know what’s happening on a channel before sending it to front of house, if my cue isn’t exactly what I’m going to hear when I raise the channel fader, then I may as well not use headphones at all.

Those two issues I’m finding I’m spending more time setting up a track than even considering playing with touch fx or explore the new fx 1 & 2.

One last thing to add would be a master EQ in the menu would be a nice touch, as sometimes I just run the prime 4 straight into active subs and speakers, without any FOH gear in between.

Apologies for the long post, if anyone has any insight I’d love to hear.

Cheers Liam

1 Like
2

Hi

I think rolling back to a version you’re happy with is always going to be the best course of action.

The pre-fade/post-fade sweep effects thing has had a lot of discussion so it’s likely the dev team are seriously considering their options with it. lots of people want to hear them in the phones.

for your last point, another one with lots of discussion, my personal advice is to pick up a cheap mixing desk to bridge the gap, I wire one up at all gigs now and it only cost me £30, rrp £50… its a cheapo Behringer and gives you some nice control over the master out into the speakers. It’s also good in case you ever need to reboot at gigs, you can play some music from another source whilst you do it.

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Thanks for the reply. I’ve read about the FX problem but I’m not sure about the gain issue, I will possibly try re-analysing my library if no one else has had the issue, but it’ll take a while. Or if it’s known when the gain problems started happening, I could work out which firmware to roll back to. I agree rolling back is likely the answer, I understand changing the way the effects work is a big update and means it may not be as easy as flipping an option in the menu, but Denon could be a bit more open and possibly offer two firmware versions, as cue not strictly being cue is quite a change.

I used to run my sound through an xr18 so I could control things over Wi-Fi when guest DJs insisted on redlining, which gave me plenty of EQ options for the PA. But with your last point about playing sound during a problem, I run 2 technics 1210 on channels 3 & 4 of the prime, now I bring a backup djm400 to switch over to vinyl if a dreaded technical failure happens (not happened yet!)

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4

Hey, I just got a Prime 4+ and I noticed a similar issue. I’m constantly having to trim or leave a lot of room on the slider in case the next track I bring in is randomly lower amplitude.

It’s also strange to me because I haven’t had this issue with the same tracks using other mixing setups (Mixxx, Traktor, etc).

Did you find a solution or track down the issue?

I also don’t understand what the point of CUE is if the FX aren’t heard in the CUE, though reading this forum I’ve found that some people prefer it that way. Or maybe they are just used to it being that way. So, I don’t want to take anything from those people, but I’m very hopeful that this feature gets Denon’s attention.

Unfortunately any Feature Request I find linked to are 404’ing and I can’t actually find this request anywhere on the forum.

Does anybody know of FX in Headphone CUE Feature Request?
Edit: https://community.enginedj.com/t/listen-effects-and-filters-on-the-headset/43086

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When you say ‘FX’ are you talking about the flex FX? and not the standard Beat FX? because most Beat FX are implemented post fader so naturally wouldn’t be heard in the headphones.

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Hey, I am reading about Post-Fader and Pre-Fader FX and learning more about them. My understanding is this is in relation to the mixer channel fader. This is how you can pull down the mixer channel slider but still have some FX in that channel’s audio and have it fade away nicely.

What I am experiencing is that when I CUE a track, the FX and Sweep FX cannot be heard in the headphones. I found some posts talking about how Sweep FX should be, or used to be heard in the CUE in version of and prior to 3.0.1 Engine DJ OS.

Ideally, I’d be able to hear both FX and Sweep FX in any mixer channel I have CUE’d that also has the FX active. Regardless of the fader’s position, the audio is still within the specific mixer channel. For example, if you apply an echo FX and pull the fader down, the echo is heard in the main output, and the echo is seen within the specific mixer channel via LED, etc.

So, from a technical perspective, I want that when I CUE a mixer channel, the output of that channel is sent to the headphones, not the pre-processed, direct audio playback from the controller. It would be one thing if the audio signal for the mixer channel was sent to a separate FX channel, making it difficult to know what audio to put in the CUE, but the FX are on the mixer channel, so it doesn’t make any sense to me that when I CUE a mixer channel, I can’t hear any FXs applied to that channel. The current way only makes sense if I was pressing a CUE button on the controller portion of the unit, which it’s not.

Any FX applied to a channel will have different rules. Some will not result in any output because your fader is down. Some will result in output even if your fader is down. That’s great, but sound is generated, or not generated, and I want to hear the sound or the non-sound. The CUE should be accurate and I should be able to hear the actual results of the mixer channel output, regardless of FX, FX type, etc.

If this isn’t for everybody, that’s cool, but I think we should have this option.

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So firstly we need completely separate the ‘Sweep FX’ and ‘Standard FX’ and talk about them individually as they are two separate entities.

Starting with the ‘Standard FX’ you can’t physically have them both post fader and audible in the headphones when activating Cue. The Cue has to be pre-fader because you’re literally monitoring the sound before it is impacted by the fader, hence being able to listen to the sound with the fader in the 0 position (or cueing as it’s otherwise known). This is the same behaviour on pretty much all DJ gear that has an effects function built in. Post fader effects need to be set after the fader in order for them to be tailed off when the fader is dropped, which is extremely popular amongst DJs.

Sweep FX is a different thing, pre a certain version it was audible only on the Prime 4 when listening in the headphones, this was because the Prime 4 had its mixer set as a hardware mixer, no other prime devices had this function. InMusic had to switch this from hardware to software mixer (like all other devices) in order to incorporate some new features like the sample pads, touch fx etc… this switch meant the ability to hear sweep fx in headphones was removed. This has a feature request you can vote on to put them back. I will say however that the Prime 4 was somewhat of an outlier in having sweep FX audible in headphones, lots of other DJ equipment doesn’t, including some supposed industry standard mixers.

3 Likes
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I just want to add, there is a technique for having pre fader FX and that tail off that I’ve been using for years with Serato… you can stop the playing track with the effect enabled and it’ll echo out, but it’s quite hard to get the timing right, especially if it’s a turntable. Then you have to remember to drop the fader afterwards otherwise it gets embarrassing if you cue the next track open fader.

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Moin @meLon_Cucumis,

I’m afraid, the matter of prelistening FX will become also a never ending story.

Here is my original post. In the meantime it is a respectable theme and here in the forum are some more posts regarding this matter.

https://community.enginedj.com/t/sweep-fx-doesnt-effect-any-longer-in-the-headphones-when-prelistening-after-migration-to-v-3-1-0/49300/1

We will see, what will happen next.

Enjoy the day and FX

Brgds BeatMaster

PS: Prelistening of Sweep (Filter) FX was one advantage for me, to buy the P4 :innocent:

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10

There’s still no update to address the cue issue (sweep fx in headphones) and the trim/level issue. Have gigged with the prime 4 for the last two months on the latest update, and pretty much every track now needs trim adjustment, and I’ve had to change my mixing style to beatmatch with headphones, then take them off and rely on my monitors to hear how my effects are introducing the next track. Not fluid at all. Cue should be cue, just like every audio desk and audio system ever made. Imagine explaining to an audio tech that their cue is prefader only and there’s no possible way for them to hear what will go FOH, just send it and see how it sounds.

Every gig for the last few years I’ve shown guest DJs and club managers the newest feats by Denon and how they can fit so much in a reasonable package - that Pioneer doesn’t have to be the club standard. And how reliable and regular updates are rolled out. But turns out updates now make you consider rolling back to older versions, or moving on to different controllers so I can actually do my work and pay my bills.

Very disappointed in my purchase of my prime 4 and to see that friends were right when they said don’t rely on a standalone system.

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11

Trim/gain will often be used as all tracks are mastered different. Perhaps you had auto trim/gain enabled on your previous setup ?

Tweaking trim/gain levels takes seconds.

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I think it was firmware V2 where trim sat around 1 o’clock for 95% of my tracks so they peak at 0dB. Now the gain is a lot more livelier, the same tracks are now ranging from 10 o’clock to 2 o’clock to keep them at the 0dB mark.

Edit. And yes I agree it takes seconds, but the lively gain is so sporadic that an intro beat sits at -20, but the beat kicks in and it almost redlines. Exact same tracks as before the major update.

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The mixer and effects were converted to software based in v3. They also improved the peak hold meters. This is probably why you are now needing to tweak the trim more than before as it should now be more accurate.