Prime 4 plus Beat matching drifting

Engine DJ Hardware Standalone Controllers
1

Hello,

I’ve just bought a prime 4 plus with the 3.3 update and I’m having a problem.

I’ve noticed with some tracks that even if I set them both to 122 bpm, there’s a slight gap after 30 seconds. If I switch one of the tracks to 121.9 or 122.1, the lag is created even faster.

Is this normal? It means that if you want to make long transitions (1 to 2 minutes), you have to use sync. This isn’t great

I made several attempts. When I use the same track and set it to the basic BPM, the decallage takes longer to appear, but it still happens.

When I set the same track to +2 BPM, the shift appears even faster.

I don’t find this normal. This is a digital turntable, not vinyl. When the beat matches, it should stay in sync without having to adjust afterwards.

I made a video on which you can see with the phase meter that the track ends up being out of sync after a while.

Any help would be great.

2

Why did you not have audio from the tracks?

Without being able to hear it, everything looks to be in sync to me. The waveforms and beat grids are all lined up. I don’t see an issue (other than the key clash).

How much DJ experience do you have?

Your first port of call when mixing is your ears. Rely on them to tell you if/when something is drifting. Second, you can use the waveforms and/or grid markers.

Don’t rely too much on what the BPM says, or what the phase meter is doing. If it sounds right, then it is right.

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3

Sorry, but it doesnt work like that. 0.1 of a BPM will make a huge difference to tracks alignment, you can’t simply set it by eying up the BPM counter then expect it to never drop out… you have to fine tune it by ear to get it truly aligned, and even then it will eventually drift unless you make subtle adjustments.

This is the reality of manual beat matching, and always has been, regardless of analogue or digital format.

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4

IMO / IME 0.1 BPM difference won’t be an issue unless you’re running the tracks together for a long time. It’s certainly close enough to get from one track to another without causing a train wreck.

Before software DJ and BPM readouts, all we had was ears and a pitch slider. You prelisten to the incoming track, move the pitch slider so the track seems to be in sync, then you mix.

I think these days people worry far too much about what the BPM readout says, or what the phase meter is doing.

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Oh yeah fully agree with that, but a BPM counter might say 129.1 on both decks but one is 129.11 and the other is 129.19 in reality… you;re not going to get much past 20 seconds of a mix and it stay in time, certainly not the 1 or 2 minute blends being quoted above, it’ll be way out.

Ive seen this a lot with new DJs who we’ve had on to warm up for the first hour etc, they dont want the stigma of being a ‘laptop DJ’ so they use CDJs, but theyre not actually doing anything in the headphones, instead relying on the BPM counter to line it up, it never ends well.

In fact id go as far as saying anyone who can do a 2 minute blend without adjusting the track, its a complete fluke as its virtually impossible to line it up manually to that accuracy.

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Depends on the BPM too, as a small difference won’t affect things at slower tempos as much as with faster ones. He’s at 122 so might have maybe 40 seconds before things start drifting audibly.

With modern “EDM” there’s usually little to no drift, so once you have the two BPMs set the same (and sync is the quickest way to do that) there’s no limit to how long you could blend.

Mind you, with some track lengths now, the thing would be over in two minutes!

Trying to tweak the pitch fader manually to get the BPM exactamundo can be challenging.

7

Thank you all for your answers.

For information I have more than 10 years of experience and I mixed until now on traktor S4 and vinyl.

Where I have trouble understanding - and perhaps my experience on traktor does not reflect how digital turntables like cdj or sc6000 opérate - is that when I set the same bpm on the 2 tracks: example 122.4 bpm for botch and I beatmatched them perfectly with m’y ears. There was no lag, even after 10 minutes.

I’m used to keeping a loop of one track on a second and keeping this element when I transition to a third track. So far, on Traktor, I’ve never had to readjust the beatmaching if I’d initially set the track up correctly on the others, without decallage.

So tell me if Traktor’s operation is an exception and if in the majority of cases with other decks, you constantly have to pitch Bend to readjust the deccallage that is created.

Another point. I noticed this morning that when, for example, I set a first track with a base bpm of 121 at + 3.2% to arrive at 123 and another track with a base bpm of 120 at + 4.2% to arrive at 123 like the first and I beatmatched them, the decallage was quickly created.

Again in comparison with traktor, even if the tracks didn’t have the same base bpm, as long as they were both set to the same bpm (123 in my example) and beatmapped by ear. There was no subsequent decallage.

(The percentages I’ve given aren’t mathematically correct, but it’s to show you that two different percentages, even if they make it possible to arrive at the same bpm of 123, end up creating a shift).

I don’t want to start a debate on beatmaching by ear. I know how to beatmatch by ear. It’s just that I find it awkward that tracks set to the same bpm end up desynchronizing.

Maybe traktor is unique in this area and is an exception, so that with all other brands of digital turntables you constantly have to readjust the beatmaching even if both tracks are at the same bpm.

Let me know what you think.

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I don’t know the ins and outs of Traktor as ive never used it, but having used VInyl, CDs, USB sticks on Pioneer, Rekordbox, Serato, Engine OS and Algoriddim, ive never had a single instance whereby lining the BPM counter up has kept tracks in time with no tweaking. I just don’t believe they are ever that accurate, even with 2 decimal places there is scope for them to move out.

The programming of the track would have to be more accurate than a quartz powered timepiece during production, the beat gridding likewise, then the program that plays the track during performance also has to be programmed to this level of accuracy in playback, for both tracks.

There might be the odd exception but i find it hard to believe you can pick any track in your library, set that counter visually then leave it and it will never drop out.

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I mainly play house or techno so maybe its thé reason

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Same here, thats been my bread and butter since i started in 1999. I wouldn’t even include soul/disco etc in this conversation, im talking purely electronic music.

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@filo12 I’m assuming you’re using software to translate from your native French, but you keep misspelling decalage, so it’s not being translated.

decalage = gap

…but are they set to the same BPM? If you’re trying to set an exact BPM by manually moving the pitch faders, it may look the same (by the digits shown) but it could be slightly different.

I tend not to bother with using pitch faders these days. It’s just quicker and more accurate to hit sync. There’s no shame in it. It’s a tool for a job.

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12

So Im a house DJ, since the mid 90s, started on vinyl…begrudgingly went to CDs and now digital (still spin vinyl though lol). So with the Denons I’ll admit the track analyzation isnt the greatest. Compared to Virtual DJ i find it’s a bit off and the grid doesnt always match up with the beat…however, Having said that. Coming from analog it’s easier, I dont really rely on the BPM and Waveform for beat matching. Its a handy tool as an “accessory” but it’s definitely not “exact”. I have to correct alot of the beat grid reading. And…keep in mind since you spin house, if you play a lot of older stuff it was done on tape so the recording “drifts”…the modern music not so much because it was quantized during the production. Denon I know is working hard to improve Engine software…they know they’re behind compared to Pioneer, Virtual DJ, Traktor, Serato etc…but they’re working on it. Just trust your DJ instincts and act like you’re still on vinyl, premix for a couple of minutes before fading in…or if you’re jumping in ride the pitch or jog wheel to beat match “live”. Hopefully Denon will continue to improve Engine so the track analysis is better giving us more accurate gridding.

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of course that i manually move the pich fader, i dont use sync. and i put both tracks to the same bpm.

I’m beginning to think it’s Denon engine’s analysis that’s crap. I’ve never had this kind of problem with Traktor and I didn’t use sync.

14

Thanks for your reply and I really understand your point that in the end it’s not a big deal to have to adjust the pitch regularly.

It’s just that I feel like I’m taking a big step backwards in terms of technology. I have to admit that it seemed obvious to me when using Traktor that when the bpm was the same and the tracks were synchronized, there was no need to worry about them getting out of sync.

Last week I used 1200 mk2 in timecode at a friend’s place with Traktor and there was no desynchronization of the beat.

That’s why I can’t believe that a technology as advanced as Prime 4 and Engine DJ still have this kind of problem.

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15

If you try it with sync and there’s no drift, then the analysis and your rhythm grids are right. And that it’s your manual synchronisation that isn’t perfect. The pitch range also plays a big part in the accuracy of manual synchronisation. You’ll have more accuracy at +/- 4% than at +/- 8% or 10%.

Perhaps you should start by testing with sync engaged to see if there is still a drift over time before accusing Engine’s analysis.

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Oh no I totally understand where you’re coming from. I use Audio Technica LP140’s (no where near the quality of Tech’s but still good) to spin timecode vinyl through Virtual DJ and the beat doesnt vary at all… I agree Engine is clunky and as good as it’s gotten it still has room to improve and with the regular updates I know it will be “great” one day. I kinda wish they’d not worry about all the effects updates and concentrate more on getting the Engine software on par with reckordbox, tracktor, algoriddum, virtual dj etc. But fingers crossed…I know they’re working…we are just in a “hurry up and wait” till then lol

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What specifically isn’t it doing for you? And what is ‘clunky’? …. Also bear in mind you’re comparing laptop software to a standalone device OS. You’re making vague comments about improving here but not saying what you’re struggling with.

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Great suggestion Gaian

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I just tried to use sync, the phase meter show that both tracks are sync and keep to be sync after one or two minutes.

When I remove the sync and beatmach, the phase meter shows that the two tracks are perfectly synchronized (as when sync is activated with the green banner added in update 3.3). Then, after 20 or 30 seconds, the phase meter shows that a gap is gradually being created.

I don’t know what to make of this and why. In both cases, the bpm is the same.

I’ve tried switching to +/- 4% but it makes no difference.

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Hi @filo12

Traktor is a rock… u can leave playing 4 tracks looped for so many hours and when u come back… the four tracks stays in sync. The same on cdj/xdj 1000, mk2, Nexus or 3000

I have tested several times doing stress tests to any of my devices, mainly because I play almost all time on three tracks and use a lot of drum loops on my performances. That’s one of the reasons why I don’t use Prime 4 on stage… only at random house parties from time to time.

Denon have serious drift problems to keep in sync more than two tracks at once for a medium/long time performance. U have to correct drift almost all the time. I suspect is related to realtime kernel device, Qt libraries and a poor development on core routines related to how the device handle cpu interruptions. I’ve said it many times… Denon’s main problem is poor software development, very poorly optimized user interface and quality testing.

I have a very large list of bugs related to wifi, browser implementation, search functions, services syncronization, ableton sync, etc. Some time ago I try to switch to Denon mainly because the on board analysis, but now it’s already on the CDJ3000… and someone have to say… a CDJ3000 works so far better that any Denon SC5000/6000/Prime, etc. The only reason not to buy a pair of CDJ3000 is if you can not afford the price. And I have tried them all many times.

If you want a precise and solid tool for your performances, I suggest using Traktor or CDJ/XDJ. You can buy a Traktor S4 Mk3 controller and a previous generation mac laptop for the same price as a Prime2.

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