Beat gridding issue — why does inserting an anchor move the assumed BPM of the remainder of the track in the opposite direction?

I realize this is a difficult thing to explain, so I first want to make sure I’m being clear about the behavior I’m describing. Here’s the exact use case that has inspired me to finally post about this. I’m adding “Stretchin’ Out” by Gayle Adams to my DJ library and because the BPM is all over the place on this old record, I am manually beat gridding it. I’m about 3/4 done. So let’s say I insert an anchor on bar 127. Moving forward with the remainder of the track, the BPM is set to 112.03. I get to bar 131 and insert a new anchor point. It turns out the actual BPM of this four bar stretch was 111.65.

Here’s the issue: adding this anchor point has now changed Denon’s BPM for the remainder of the song to 112.05. In other words, telling the software that the previous section of the song was slower than expected is causing the software to move the BPM further in the wrong direction.

I can sorta begin to imagine what kinda coding would lead to this behavior, but this is a clear bug in my view that makes beat gridding more difficult for obvious reasons. I think the ideal behavior would be for the software to assume that the BPM implied by the most recent anchor points carries over for the rest of the track.

Somewhat related question: What determines the intervals the BPM is pushed back/forward when using the “Decrease BPM” or “Increase BPM” buttons on desktop? I’ve noticed that they seem to vary wildly and seemingly at random.

  1. Drop an anchor at bar 127

  2. Move forward to bar 131

  3. Instead of dropping another anchor, use the increase or decrease icon

This line up the grids from Bar 127 to 131 and by design to the end of the track, assuming the bpm from 127 to end of the track remains steady

1 Like

I have this issue when I am working with old funk/disco tracks. They have various issues, but this is one. I always look for where the song starts to “drift” from the current bpm and set an anchor on the last correct downbeat. As @mufasa suggests, I then adjust the tempo trying to get as far into the track as possible before setting another adjustment.

The issue comes when trying to line up the downbeat marker with where I want to set the anchor. It can be really tricky to get this lined up perfectly, and when you don’t it will adjust the bpm before and after the anchor.

A tip when working with electronic music that has tempo shifts (that usually end up back where they start) is to write down the tempo so you can simply type it back in to the tempo box (Afraid to Feel - LF System is a good recent example).

Feel free to add your comments and thoughts and vote to this feature request below.

https://community.enginedj.com/t/flexible-beatgrid-ability-to-set-a-manual-downbeat/36984?u=mishta_p

Good day to all,

yesterday I posted this

https://community.enginedj.com/t/flexible-beatgrid-ability-to-set-a-manual-downbeat/36984/43

I will revert to this thread asap (when finishing the annual report, and this will take some time as well).

For the never ending discussion, I want to point out these two items to distinguish:

  • BPM not constant
  • Rhythm / Cadence not 1, 2, 3, 4 / 1, 2, 3, 4 / …; suddenly 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 / 1, 2, 3, 4 /

Imo these issues are totally different, but the result in beatmatching in both cases is spoiling the mix and the crowd will stop dancing and blow on their fingers.

To be continued and have a nice day

Best Regards

BeatMaster

Good evening to all of you, dear @JWiLL,

in the meantime I took some time for testing. For testing purpose I selected;

The Duncan Sisters “Boys will be Boys” my Original DJ Copy from EarMArc / Casablanca (Promotional Copy / Not for sale, EMLP 4001 DJ). The track is the same as

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KuGBJCL3W_A

Test 1

I tested at my desktop with Engine DJ 2.4.0. to fix the beatgrid. The issue is persisting as follows:

If I fix the downbeats by dropping an anchor, the BPM will be adjusted automatically.

At that moment, when I have to adjust the beatgrid by hand (as I have only 3 beats in a cadence, it will happen at downbeat 187 -commencing at the first beat with cue 1-), all downbeats I had just improved now are moving again and become misorder.

It is still impossible, to fix an anchor and amend the following beatgrid (to the right). The beatgrid I had just amended is in disorder again.

btw.: it is impossible to type / correct bpm manually next to a dropped anchor. The field to insert bpm, the decrease or increase icons are blocked as well (notice for @mufasa, he is an expert in handling the beatgrid correction procedure :innocent:)

Test 2

I tested the same issue at my Prime 4 (2.4.0.) when pressing Edit Grid (Engine OS).

The same problem occured: Once I had fixed the downbeat by dropping an anchor and want to improve the beatgrid from this point on by steering the platter (cueing edge or the surface of the platter) I damage again that, what I just improved.

Furthermore it was utmost strange: As I just made an “ammendment”, the beatgrid starts moving by itself to the old position.

So I stopped the procedure and started again. It seems that the ghost had disappeared. It’s not a joke.

And so imo its not a finished story and the procedure must be improved a furthermore time asap , or pls be so kind as to correct me, if I handle the system incorrectly.

But I think, not ony boys will be boys, Denon as well.

Happy testing with the announced track, it is easy to drop anchor by listening, even for beginners in beatmatching.

Thanks for your attention and enjoy making music with DENON’s equipment.

I’m looking forward to reading your comments.

Brgds

BeatMaster