@Marek_Reuter exactly. Somewhere noise (distortion) has to be added in. You cant just magically upscale a 48 to a 96… the info just isnt there so the upscale just makes it up. Hence distortion.
The SRC for file rate compatibility appears to be at least part of the SC Prime players’ own speed change algorithm, or rather vice versa. So, keylock off and moving the slider around and it needing to resample everything to whatever work rate it’s using appears to be all part of the same thing on them. My understanding is that if you’re just doing the speed change on digital DJ media players that are at the same rate already as the file, it’s only part of the SRC stuff, but in the case of the SC Prime players, it just does the whole shmeer.
And to be fair, the SRC on the players does do some interesting things. While it’s arguably half-@ssed, overly-efficient, and unnecessary in the first place with impulse amplitude oscillation, intermodulation distortion (a type of nasty nonlinear distortion, basically one of the worst-sounding and audible types of subtle audio distortions), and has a bunch of ultrasonic distortion (perhaps aliasing ‘reflection’), it does have a fairly clean impulse response for a computationally-efficient real time SRC, even if it seems to do nothing else right except having a clean impulse and being computationally-efficient.
Run a live, continuous impulse test, and you can see the amplitude oscillation of them. Run a frequency bandwidth test of sufficient treble extension, and you’ll see the ultrasonic garbage being added, as well as the poor extension of the original sonic content (be careful what you wish for asking for just more extension if they don’t change anything else). Run either a proper IMD test or just watch a test tone sweep on a real time frequency analyzer to see the extra harmonics being generated that aren’t even linear harmonics that move in a direct, fractional/multiplier manner with the test tone.
If you want to learn more about how SRC methods vary, you can look at the following and compare various post processing (i.e. not real time) software methods that are even hit or miss:
Oh, and you might be interested in this:
If You Own X1850 Mixer I Would Suggest You check for the Following Fault. This Is Only an Issue when set to 96k digital output, it’s ok on 48K.
Connect all 4 analogue inputs if you can. Set all 4 inputs to line All faders in the off position Turn the fader trim to each channel 12 O’ clock or more Do not play any music.
Now If you have the fault you will see the channel LED level meters start to flash slowly at the bottom light of -40 across them all in turn.
If you turn the fader trims above 12 o’ clock to max, then the lights flash higher up to -16.
This also applies to the master output volume, the higher the volume the higher up the lights flash on the VU bars to the master output.
If all 4 inputs are set to line then all 4 flash, if 2 are on line and 2 on digital only the line ones will flash. It’s reacting as if there is low volume sound there but there is not, there should be no movement of the channel LEDs if no signal or sound.
This mixer is designed to be able to have line and digital inputs work side by side at 96K.
I have reported this to InMusic but by all accounts I am the only one to do so. Apparently most DJs set the output to 48k for connection to other devices so are not aware of this.
Unfortunately after two of these mixers from different batches and both had the same fault I had to refund and go with a different manufacturer.
Even if you do not use the 96k I would suggest you at least test it and If you do have this fault please make sure you log it with InMusic and if your mixer is still under warrantee where you purchased it.
Keith
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What devices are you connecting to the line input? What cables are you using? Do they have shielding on them? Are they running near to any power cables?
Hi Stu-C There was two SC6000 connected via the 4 cables that Denon supply, not next to the power cables.
The fault has been confirmed by Denon / InMusic that there is no doubt of.
Regards Keith
Those cables that come with players are usually bargain basement items though aren’t they, they should be replaced with superior items by anyone who is serious about sound quality. Is there an audible sound coming through the channels when you turn the trim up? Or is it just lights on the mixer?
One other question, what is the purpose of turning up the sample rate on the mixer if you’re plugging the units in through the line connection? Shouldn’t you be using the digital coax to take advantage of that sample rate?
Obviously there is some issue whereby the increased sample rate is adding some sensitivity to the sound, but it’s only apparent by doing 2 things that aren’t relative to each other? (Line input and digital sample rate) and if it’s not actually causing noise to come through the signal chain is it worth worrying about?
Just to add, it looks like you already created a thread about this 6 months ago? Any particular reason for restarting it?
Posts moved here
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Hi - Yes the cables that you get with equipment is not the best but the one’s from Denon are not to bad to be fair, but yes better ones for the best quality is correct.
Yes a small amount of background noise can be heard, not much but it’s there.
My use is multiple in some cases I I would have all 4 inputs digital from the SC600s and digital out (all my own digital copies that I make are 96k / 24 bit for these players). But other times I use 2 digital one from each player and 2 analogue from SL1200 so digital and analogue side by side.
Also some times my need is to use the analogue output depending what I am doing.
When I first posted this I thought it was just a fault with my one, since then I know this is not the case. InMusic, when I last had contact could not find what was causing this problem this was some time ago now. Plus a friend of mine said as things are a little different to what I believed at the time I should re-post it to make others aware, what they do is up to each individual. Also I was told at the time I was the only one to report this hopefully this lets others to know what to check for. Plus it’s been some time without it being rectified.
This post is purely to make to make others check there mixer and report it if necessary.
Also I am a firm believer that if it says in the spec it can do xyz then it should it’s what you pay for.
Keith
Each channel’s analog line inputs on your X1850 are noisy only when the mixer is set to 96khz, or is this just an LED glitch?
Does it still happen when nothing is connected to the rear inputs at all even though ‘line’ is selected?
Does switching to phono have any effect still without any inputs connected, such as increasing this noise level or LED glitch as compared to ‘line’?
Have you tried looking at the X1850’s digital signal (by way of SPDIF into SPDIF interface or, easier yet, just using the USB) with something like SoundForge’s spectrum analyzer or free spectrum & scope software like TrueRTA? I suggest you also switch to 44.1khz and 48khz to see if the noise is indeed absent on them, but ensure that the computer and software has properly switched sampling rates to match the mixer before coming to any conclusions, of course.
You can. CD players are doing multiple times oversampling since the mid 80s. Its no problem at all, if done correctly it might actually improve precision on good speakers (like I said, all common audio knowledge from the 80s). But you don’t earn information that isnt there before ofc.
Hi Reticuli Never tried it with nothing plugged in, can’t remember for sure when connected to a turntable but I think it was still the same. The background noise is only slight with no music playing.
It only happens when set to 96kz output fine on 48kHz If all 4 inputs are set to line then all 4 flash, if 2 are on line and 2 on digital only the line ones will flash. This mixer is designed to be able to have line and digital inputs work side by side at 96K output.
What I must say is that InMusic have confirmed this is a fault, this is only to make others aware as most have their mixer set at 48 kHz due to other devices connected. I do not connect to any effects. I bought this as one as it went with the two SC6000 I purchased plus it sates it works at 96kHz / 24 bit.
Regards Keith
Hi Dj alzy This has nothing to do with distortion it’s a fault in the mixer that’s been confirmed by InMusic. Also I am not trying to upscale, I want the digital copies of vinyl that I make to be as good as I can within my price range. So using Sound forge studio 16 I make all my own digital copies at 196,000kHz @ 24 bit for my Hi-Fi however I resave all these at 96kHz @24 bit for the Denon SC6000s as these and the mixer are designed to work at these sample and bit rates. I just want what it says on the tin (paid for) as they say.
Regards Keith
You have moved to another manufacturer now anyway Keith so i wouldn’t worry yourself too much about the problem.
As you say most people will either just leave their mixer on the lower sample rate (as there is barely any difference in sound anyway) or just connect digital devices via a digital specific cable, with record decks connected via the Phono connection (not line as you implied above) so its a complete non-issue for the vast majority of users who are just going to connect their gear business as usual.
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Curious. I would think if it’s some sort of fault in 96khz mode that introduces noise into the analog input sections that this would be immediately noticeable on the phono sections that have even more sensitivity, but perhaps it’s just an issue with the line ins? Since you don’t have the mixer anymore, I guess, it would be impossible for you to check this yourself. I would be interested what others find out, though.
On the x1850 mixer when selecting the sampling rate at 96 khz it makes slight background noise, it makes “clicks” like the sound of vinyl records. It can be seen in the stopons and silence of the songs. At 48 or 44.1 it doesn’t happen. It happens to me by on vinyl with Technics and Ortofon club mk2 needles, it also happens with the SC6000 using the digital output, and it also happens with serato. Is it a firmware problem? I have reinstalled the firmware 2 times. V.1.7
Hi Edubeat
This is part of the fault I have already posted (see below), it is a fault and InMusic are aware. But at the time I was the only person to report it, you need to log it with them and where you bought it if under 1 year old.
By any chance, do you know if it happens in all mixers? Or if they change it, maybe I don’t have the problem? My x1850 is 6 months old and for the rest I am delighted. I just informed Inmusic and I will send an email to the store. Let’s see what they tell me.
Hi Edubrat
Without going into the full details of what happened, Yes this fault is in all X1850 mixers as far as I know regardless of when you bought it. I was told by the technical person of where I bought the second one that my first mixer was still on the bench with them trying to find the issue and that this fault was in the design so they was passing onto there main tech department I think in America.
As I was the only person to have found this the person I was dealing with did not feel it would be high on the list to resolve. I was told that most DJs use 48 kHz as they connect to other devices and that’s why others have not had the issue. One of the reason I picked this mixer is the fact it does 96 kHz as I am all about Hi-spec, if it says it’s capable of 96 kHz then I expect it as paid for it.
You say you have informed InMusic, you have to log a fault for it to count.
Good luck Keith
I think there can be an easy firmware fix for this →
- remove 96 kHz from settings
- done
Most user would not complain since X1850 is operation with default setting and the once having problem should receive the required support / solution.
Personally I would not care on it too much. Honestly I am wondering that internally in does not operate on a higher resolution than 48 kHz by default. Especially in situations when you mix audio together I think this has some benefits.
Hi Aquadics
Well removing 96 kHz output it is one way to deal with it, I.E. make the problem disappear.
But for those of us who want / require 96 kHz it’s a different matter and if you have files at 96 kHz @ 24 bit you can hear the difference. But yes as I have already said most users are happy with 48 kHz or 44.1 kHz for there needs.
But the other point is if a manufacture says there product does XYZ then it has to according to trading standards. I requested my X1850 be repaired but they could not as did not how to at that point in time, so my options where use it at 48 kHz (a no for me) or have a full refund.
Keith