A Rant on Quality and User Serviceability

It’s highly unlikely that any update process, Wi-Fi connection, or anything else could have caused a power outage.

The SC6000 can reach a maximum power consumption of 75W under load, or 150W if you had two units powered on at the time. And these are maximum values; I’m not even sure if the consumption is at its maximum during an update process.

In short, if your electrical system can’t handle 150W of power, there’s definitely a problem with it.

The only possibility for such a low-power device to cause a power outage is that there’s an internal short circuit, liquid spilled on it, excess humidity/condensation, or an internal component overheating due to poor ventilation/aeration of the devices (possible but rare).

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“It” being the electrical system, not the Prime device

Hi I have just left Denon for similar reasons with my Prime4+ to many faults to many problems not enough help ! as I am full-time and I have now returned to alpha theta /Pioneer bit more expensive but hey more reliable as I moved over from Pioneer some years ago. I wish you luck, whatever you do..

Cutting power during an update ‘shouldn’t’ Kill the unit. Generally there’s safeguards during the update process so when the file is checked at the end it should pass the check or revert to its previous firmware. I’m pretty sure from memory that the Engine OS hardware have these checks in place.

Pop the unit into update mode and see if you can get them uploaded via a USB stick or ever USB cable, connected to a computer (people have more luck with the cable method after issues like this).

It’s not 100% but I’d say it’s looking likely it should be recoverable.

when I read certain comments it makes me laugh! alphateta is more expensive but it has no problems ahaha! I have two prime 4 plus and neither has a single problem! instead my rx3 is full of problems! bought in February and has already been in for assistance twice, luckily I have only used it 4 times!

Just moving on a tangent here.

The EU is rolling out the “right to repair” directive amongst it’s member states. The directive forces manufacturers of certain categories of consumer goods to have the product be designed so it’s serviceable. Spare parts must be available at a reasonable price and no blocking or 3th party spare parts is allowed.

Even the prime gear isn’t “consumer goods” nor falls within the chosen product categories I do hope inMusic would incorporate the basic principles of “right to repair” in it’s future hardware!

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Yeah that would be great Ben… the only issue, the 3 complainants in this thread are not in an EU country :), hopefully the directive means wider right to repair availabilty on the back of it.

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And DJ gear isn’t within the scope.

But for the sake of argument. It would make zero sense to manufacture a mixer with replaceable faders for the EU market and one with welded faders for the UK market.

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Yeah fully agree, tbh it doesnt make much sense to me to not have replaceable faders on ALL DJ gear :slight_smile:

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Yes. I do fully agree with this. The old old old x500 and x900 mixers had individually replaceable faders - under a user access panel.

Users could even replace 1, 2, 3 or all 4 linear faders with Rotary pots, for those DJs who hadn’t discovered that linear faders with fader contour/curve control could offer even smoother transitions.

I’d like to see future models from Denon DJ to have user replaceable linear faders, user replaceable play cue modules (module features the tac switch and the user-visible play / cue button above…

The issue there is that “ user replaceable “ then involves a plug and socket , rather than solder - and so each plug and socket becomes a point of failure in itself.

I think, from what I can tell, that the X1850 crossfader is maybe replaceable…that seems to be a common drop-in part for most mixers. And, while true that I do not live in the EU, there is at least a little push for general right-to-repair here in the USA with varying levels of success…pesky industry lobbyists getting in the way of that though. I am glad that the EU has forced some direction on electronics that has trickled into the USA (USB-C as the standard charging interface for mobile devices, for example).

And anything is replaceable with enough soldering know-how. :slight_smile:

But honestly, socketed components are the way to go. Drawing an anecdote from game console repairs I have performed, I have yet to see critical socket failure on my retro gaming and computer equipment with socketed chips. My NES, Commodore VIC-20, and various GameBoy handhelds and games all have been upgraded with socketed core components where it makes sense to do so and I have yet to see any enhanced degradation of quality. It’s more expensive, sure, but I’ll take more expensive in order to swap a component myself within a couple hours at most.

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I have to say that I love Denon gear but am not comfortable purchasing any of their units because of their service history, and I’m also worried about the quality of their units. I tend to see many complaints about controllers or All-In-Ones malfunctioning. Because of this I stick to Pioneer gear exclusively. I would totally invest in Denon DJ gear if I had more faith in the service and quality, but until then I’m on hold. Many of my friends have Denon gear so I do often get the opportunity to play on the SC6000s, SC5000’s, the Prime 4 series, and they’re just awesome equipment. Please InMusic get this issue resolved so I can start purchasing some of these myself.

The main difference between InMusic and AlphaTheta regarding reliability and repairability, InMusic leave all the complaints in full view on the forum, they don’t remove things. This leads to an impression that more people are unhappy with their gear.

As much as I despise Reddit, its lack of moderation tends to provide a more realistic overview of issues.

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As other have said in this thread, you’ll see plenty of complaints about all makes of DJ gear except puoneer - is this because pioneer never ever go wrong ? Pah of course not, … the reason why you don’t see many or any complaints about pioneer gear is that their forum is actively pruned daily, even across different time zones - and a heck of a lot of their complaint posts “magically” disappear … the only posts which stay are the ones the mods over there miss, gain traction, gain replies etc and so would be “missed” if they then got deleted.

Hang around any forum, facebook group, or customer service/spare parts department for ANY device, car, kitchen appliance, truck, supermarket, whatever … and you’ll think that they are the worst possible item ever invented lol - forums and social media groups are magnets for every little gripe and grumble - whilst few genuine users ever find the need to post “mines been perfect for 5/10/15 years”

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Also, remember the ratio of all-in-one units to the SC media players is huge. The amount of units, including Numark, will skew what you see.

Funny you should say that, I’ve recently moved to a new Doctors surgery (after moving house) and my partners Mum said ‘you don’t want to go there, I’ve heard it’s rubbish’, to which I replied “everywhere is rubbish if you try and research it, even our favourite restaurants, bars and anywhere else we love to go”

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Remember too that a unit (from anyone) that only has one button on it …. Doesn’t have much to go wrong… a unit with 50 buttons, 3 colour displays, a few dozen rotary controls, 100 LEDs, 20 pads or push buttons and a dozen connectors (like an all-in-one controller) will have loads more possible things to get damaged.

Similarly a stand alone player , like the SC models , doesn’t have all those mixer features to go wrong - and vice versa

There are few things that will perpetually hold InMusic back from ever being any kind of industry standard anything:

Sure, quality control. It’s been pretty bad ever since the late 90s & early 2000s for new Numark, aka InMusic brands. I don’t have their internal numbers, but I assume it’s improved, and at least their service and success rate in solving hardware problems has. The roll out of the Prime line was a disaster from a software perspective, but I haven’t seen that quite repeated by them yet… knock on wood. The VL12 turntable was really not a viable design as anything other than either non-DJ hifi use or DVS from the get-go, but who knows how that came to be or who designed it.

Yes, lack of repairability. I’m not even a certified electronics tech, and I’ve repaired multiple Pioneer DJ kit myself. I’m nervous about just trying to re-lube my SC5000M’s motors or replace an up fader on an X1800.

You already know what I think about InMusic playback sound processing and the proof to back it up. You go through all the trouble of recording a mix for a few hours using lossless tracks you own or using Tidal, and it ends up sounding like MP3s coming out of Prime. Yeah, some music that really doesn’t matter either way, but with some music it definitely matters.

The network link for the players is less stable and more prone to glitches than Pro Link. I don’t know why, but it’s still less reliable than Pioneer DJ’s solution. I still think using a streaming service, even if you’re not getting your money’s worth with the degradation Engine OS is doing to Tidal, is more reliable, especially if you have no drive connected for saving cue points for some reason. Bizarre. Or just put one drive in each player, which seems at least partially the 6000 and other models’ point of having an internal drive bay: get around the not-entirely-reliable link by making it convenient to just keep a drive in each player.

Changes to the entire player HUD interface from the original layout that radically alters and degrades the ability to use the players as they were originally designed and advertised.

Finally, more nonsense like a new database version on the latest player OS firmware and the new desktop analysis software for something as simple as creating a searchable database that turns out isn’t backwards compatible, being told by InMusic that all these Prime players regardless of firmware and database in question will at least read a drive’s file structure and tracks, and literally instead the drives become inaccessible on the players with older firmware using the original HUD interface. Catastrophic. What’s the point of not having a laptop in the booth if you need a laptop in the booth to make sure visiting DJs’ drives are prepped well enough to read?

Instead of finding InMusic stuff in venues, I tend to not only mostly see Pioneer DJ, but even more likely than risking InMusic stuff, them resorting to the worst piece of garbage all-in-one consoles that Pioneer DJ makes. I don’t suspect that will change soon. I hear from some other DJs out occasionally that they own Prime stuff, but you almost never see it out. They’ve got it at home if they don’t need to rely on it, repair it, and/or take it out and expect other DJs to use it in a venue. For someone with 2X prime mixers and 5X prime players, I admit this is a sucky situation. Besides, I’d rather there was more real competition.

The fact that I can find a detailed service manual for the CDJ 3000, which includes a wealth of information that I assume skilled engineers can use to clone it, gives InMusic zero excuse to not provide one to end-users. I was told directly that a service manual could not be provided because it contains “sensitive information”, yet AlphaTheta gives you the wiring and block diagrams.

I think you are right. It doesn’t matter how cool and (arguably) technologically superior Engine OS can be if nothing else around it is stable and can’t easily be repaired by even semi-skilled electronics technicians.

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